Basement Wiring?

[boggen]

not an electrician by no means. just a hilly billy farmer. updating house and sheds.

if it were me, i would skip idea of sub panel if you have plenty of room in the main panel. yes it means fishing wires further. but it keeps it simple.

a sub panel. for me = need of a ground wire between main panel and sub panel and possibly a ground rod. coming off of the sub panel. others would no better.

as far as circuits go.
running vacuums for to clean a carpet, or a shop vac, or a blender, freezer, fridge, and then having say a computer or a entertainment system, with a flat screen tv on same circuit is a no no for me. the vacuums and like. can cause some static, which can cause computers to lock up, and other entertainment systems (even video game consoles to lock up or die)

if ya run the wires clear back to the main panel. vs going to a sub panel. more of the static is lessened and there is no big problems.

with above....
1 circuit bathroom outlets
2 different circuits in family room for outlets
1 or 2 circuits for bed rooms. perhaps a fan/light and an outlet per room. and the other circuit feeding to the remaining outlets in bed rooms.
1 circuit for bathroom light and family room lighting.

the bigger wire is not that bad to deal with. ya the wires are a little bit bigger. but if ya end up pulling wires all the way from the main box. by the time ya count up all the length of wire, and then get a big spool of wire. you will most likely be better off. than trying to mess around with 2 different types of wire for lights and outlets.

now if you were an electrician. that had multi types of wire already on hand. then ya it would make sense. but for me, trying to make sure i had a long enough wire, that i didn't have to splice together. mid way, it was much easier to just get a big spool of wire and go from there.

==============
as far as circuits go. when running your wires through out the basement / house. try and keep them separated by a couple inches. as you take them to the ceiling joists in the basement, or drill holes through the joists. i found it much easier to trace wires much easier if they are separated. vs all ran through one ball of mess through a single hole. or tact together using the same staple.

 

[dieselscout80]

Hi,
Here are a couple of things to keep in mind:

The bathroom receptacle must be a 20 Amp circuit that does not supply anything outside of the bathroom. The bath lights may also be on this circuit, or they may be on a circuit that supplies other lights & recepts. in other parts of the house.

All the rooms mentioned, except for the bathroom, must be put on arc-fault circuit breakers. Keep in mind that only a couple of breaker manufacturers produce 2-pole arc-fault breakers, so I would avoid running multiwire circuits (using 3-wire to supply 2 circuits with a shared neutral) as some others have suggested. I've never actually seen a 2-pole AFCI, and I'm an electrician.

You may find that adding a sub-panel saves you a lot of work, but that's often a judgement call. In general, if you have more than 4 circuits, then it's worth at least considering. Your subfeed will need to have 3 insulated condutors plus a ground. Generally, aluminum (SER cable) will be less money than copper (NM or "romex" type).

One poster mentioned that you cannot use 15-amp rated switches and receptacles on a 20-amp circuit. That is incorrect. So long as there is more than a single device (a duplex outlet counts as two devices) on a 20-amp circuit, then they may be rated at 15 amps.

Use the code that is in effect when you are doing the work: In Maine, the 2011 NEC will not be adopted until late summer or early fall. Until then, the 2008 NEC is still the rule.

Don't forget smoke and CO alarms. Check with your fire marshal or code enforcement officer to understand your local requirements. Likely that they'll want alarms in each bedroom, interconnected with other hardwired units in the house, if they exist.

Lighting circuits: add up the total wattage of all the fixtures. All fixtures have a maximum wattage rating; use that number. Circuits may only be loaded up to 80% with lighting (includes general receptacles). So a 15-amp circuit can handle 1440 watts, a 20-amp circuit can do 1920 watts.

Without seeing the plans and evaluating the installation, I might be inclined to install a subfeed to a remote panel. Then run:
1 20-amp circuit to the bath outlets.
1 20-amp AFCI circuit to both bedrooms.
1 20-amp AFCI circuit to the family room.
1-2 15 amp AFCI circuits to all lights, depending on the total of the light loads.
Smoke alarms should be installed on an existing smoke alarm circuit (extend from the existing basement smoke alarm) or if there is no existing smoke alarm circuit, they may go on the light circuit, or on a dedicated circuit -- your choice.

Remember, you cannot install a remote panel (aka "sub-panels") in a bathroom or in a closet.

I hope some of this is helpful.
Cheers, Mike

That info about no sub panel in the closet shoots do my idea of where to install a sub panel.

Would someone really think of putting a breaker box in a bath room? :confused2:

 

[grsthegreat]

That info about no sub panel in the closet shoots do my idea of where to install a sub panel.

Would someone really think of putting a breaker box in a bath room? :confused2:

you would not believe where ive seen them... i repaired one that was installed directly over the kitchen sink

what WERE they thinking.....mine you it was installed in the 1950's. so who knows what remodels have happened since new.

i did one service call where i needed to shut off the main breaker to rewire a panel...i asked where the main was. the farmer took me outside to the main. it was about 15-18 feet in the air towards the peak of the house.

again, what were they thinking. after getting the extension ladder out and killing it, i proceeded to repair the sub panel. afteri unscrewed the fuses, i found the problem. melted dimes and pennies behind the fuses. usual comeback "i got tired of changing fuses"

i put everything back together, flipped the main and gave him an estimate to repair this soon to be firetrap.
never heard back from them. no loss

 

[ultrarunner]

I've seen service disconnect and meter bases on trees... one I know has been there since 1961... I'm sure it has gained some elevation over the years.

The utility at one time would use trees instead of utility poles in this little mountain community.

Most older homes here have panels in the hall or bedroom closet... just about all the new ones are located in the laundry room.

 

[KennyG]

That info about no sub panel in the closet shoots do my idea of where to install a sub panel.

Would someone really think of putting a breaker box in a bath room? :confused2:

My house that I am currently remodeling has the main entrance breaker box in a basement bathroom. Fortunately, the room is big enough that I was able to build a "utility closet" (which does meet code) around it.

With the all the rewiring necessary in this house, I've added two subpanels in the house and one in the pole barn. The world has changed since the 70's.

 

[crazyal]

Unless you have a great working knowledge of electricity avoid a shared neutral circuit or if you think anyone may do any wiring other than you. They are trouble. When installed correctly they are fine but in a number of states homeowners are allowed to do their own electrical work and simply moving a wire from one breaker to another to make some room in a panel can be deadly. I've even seen electricians not get it right. IMO they are just not worth the little savings.

 

[BobRip]

Unless you have a great working knowledge of electricity avoid a shared neutral circuit or if you think anyone may do any wiring other than you. They are trouble. When installed correctly they are fine but in a number of states homeowners are allowed to do their own electrical work and simply moving a wire from one breaker to another to make some room in a panel can be deadly. I've even seen electricians not get it right. IMO they are just not worth the little savings.

Avoid the shared neutral period. A broken neutral can put 220 volts on a 120 volt outlet.

 

[crazyal]

Avoid the shared neutral period. A broken neutral can put 220 volts on a 120 volt outlet.

My father had something similar happen. The neutral in the meter box rusted and the code when the house was built was to just run a clamp to the incoming waterline. Things like the fridge drew enough current that it blew a lot of electronics plugged into the other side.

 

[dstig1]

Avoid the shared neutral period. A broken neutral can put 220 volts on a 120 volt outlet.

Reading back over what I have posted in this, I guess I never said that directly, but that is my feeling too. Too many little things can go wrong from improper install to changes down the road that it isn't worth it for some minor savings.

 

[boggen]

That info about no sub panel in the closet shoots do my idea of where to install a sub panel.

Would someone really think of putting a breaker box in a bath room? :confused2:

if you are doing a sub panel, not sure what merits as a closet. the main box for my home. is in the basement. and some 2x8's or 2x10's are used for the sides and some angle brackets with concrete anchor/screws into the brick wall, with some 2x4's on the front. and them some paneling wrapped around it. and some hinged doors that cover the electrical panel. with a deadbolt style latch, i want to say 6 feet off the ground. so little kids can not easily open the doors and get into the panel / wiring.

 

[dieselscout80]

if you are doing a sub panel, not sure what merits as a closet. the main box for my home. is in the basement. and some 2x8's or 2x10's are used for the sides and some angle brackets with concrete anchor/screws into the brick wall, with some 2x4's on the front. and them some paneling wrapped around it. and some hinged doors that cover the electrical panel. with a deadbolt style latch, i want to say 6 feet off the ground. so little kids can not easily open the doors and get into the panel / wiring.

I'm going to build a 5 1/2' x 9' storage closet and which is where I thought I'd install a sub panel if I did install one.

 

[MikeInMaine]

if you are doing a sub panel, not sure what merits as a closet.

Good question re: what is a closet. The panel may go in a "utility closet" but not in a "clothes closet". If it has closet rods, it's a clothes closet. Do not install shelving above or below the panel (see below).

A few other details in the NEC about locating panels have to do with what's called "working space". The purpose of working space is to ensure a safe working environment above, below and in front of the panel, free of obstacles:
Measured from the back of the panel, there must be at least 36" in front of the panel where a worker can stand. That space also has to be a minimum of 30" wide to allow room for your shoulders and arms. This 36" x 30" (minimum) space extends from floor to ceiling. No other obstacles should be in that space, so no pipes, ducts, etc. Also, don't fasten a workbench underneath the panel. A worker shouldn't have to kneel on a workbench or reach around obstacles to do panel work. It is okay to store things in that space so long as they can easily be moved out of the way. The top breaker in the panel must be no higher than 6'6" above the floor so short people like me can reach it without standing on a ladder or chair. Isn't this fun?!

So, if you build a utility closet for your panel, and the closet is only 2' deep, the panel can go on the back wall, opposite the doorway. If the doorway is at least 30" wide, then you've satisfied the requirements. One more thing I just remembered, any room with electrical equipment must have a light.

Cheers! Mike

 

[crazyal]

Good question re: what is a closet. The panel may go in a "utility closet" but not in a "clothes closet". If it has closet rods, it's a clothes closet. Do not install shelving above or below the panel (see below).

A few other details in the NEC about locating panels have to do with what's called "working space". The purpose of working space is to ensure a safe working environment above, below and in front of the panel, free of obstacles:
Measured from the back of the panel, there must be at least 36" in front of the panel where a worker can stand. That space also has to be a minimum of 30" wide to allow room for your shoulders and arms. This 36" x 30" (minimum) space extends from floor to ceiling. No other obstacles should be in that space, so no pipes, ducts, etc. Also, don't fasten a workbench underneath the panel. A worker shouldn't have to kneel on a workbench or reach around obstacles to do panel work. It is okay to store things in that space so long as they can easily be moved out of the way. The top breaker in the panel must be no higher than 6'6" above the floor so short people like me can reach it without standing on a ladder or chair. Isn't this fun?!

So, if you build a utility closet for your panel, and the closet is only 2' deep, the panel can go on the back wall, opposite the doorway. If the doorway is at least 30" wide, then you've satisfied the requirements. One more thing I just remembered, any room with electrical equipment must have a light.

Cheers! Mike

Isn't that light suppose to be on it's own breaker?

 

[ultrarunner]

Is their still a requirement against firewall penetration?

I used to buy the code book at each adoption and would study up on it... my last code bookl is dated 1982.

It was getting expensive buying all the new code books every couple of years and the updates.

My work now is heavily NFPA... I have a dozen up to date on my shelf at the moment...

 

[dieselscout80]

I have to fix some wiring to a out building that is on the same end of the house as my basement project.

The out building has a bathroom (1/2 bath) and a window AC unit.

I've added up the electrical usage and come up with 7326 watts (includes a 20% addition for safety).

I will have eight circuits to feed from the sub panel.
Bathroom 2
Outside outlet 1
Window AC 1
lights and outlets 4

It would be nice to have two open slots in the sub panel in case I need another circuit.

I think I can cover the 7326 amps with a 40 amp breaker feeding from main panel with 6/3 wire to a sub panel. Is this okay?

Will this panel work? http://www.lowes.com/ProductDisplay...gId=10051&cmRelshp=req&rel=nofollow&cId=PDIO1

Can someone provide me a link to a good subpanel for this?

 

[grsthegreat]

I have to fix some wiring to a out building that is on the same end of the house as my basement project.

The out building has a bathroom (1/2 bath) and a window AC unit.

I've added up the electrical usage and come up with 7326 watts (includes a 20% addition for safety).

I will have eight circuits to feed from the sub panel.
Bathroom 2
Outside outlet 1
Window AC 1
lights and outlets 4

It would be nice to have two open slots in the sub panel in case I need another circuit.

I think I can cover the 7326 amps with a 40 amp breaker feeding from main panel with 6/3 wire to a sub panel. Is this okay?

Will this panel work? Shop Eaton Cutler-Hammer 24-Circuit 12-Space 125-Amp All-in-One/Combination Main Lug Load Center at Lowes.com

Can someone provide me a link to a good subpanel for this?

Theres nothing wrong with the panel you linked to. Is there going to be any heat??

Overall a bathroom only needs 1 circuit - a gfci outlet 20 amp. The lights can be shared with other lighting ion the building. What other things are in the outbuilding?

Seems like a little over-circuiting. The outside outlet doesn't need to be on its own breaker unless thats what you specifically want. It depends on how many light fixtures and the kind used as to how many lighting circuits you will need, but i rarely use more than 2 circuits for lighting in the average outbuilding.

You will need a main breaker in the sub-panel. You will need to make sure you bring over a ground, a neutral and 2 hots for a 40 amp - 240 volt circuit. Depending on distance run from panel to panel, a 8/3 copper UF (underground feed) romex run will power up to 45 amps, the 6/3 UF romex can power up to 60 amps comfortably.

 

[BobRip]

I have to fix some wiring to a out building that is on the same end of the house as my basement project.

The out building has a bathroom (1/2 bath) and a window AC unit.

I've added up the electrical usage and come up with 7326 watts (includes a 20% addition for safety).

I will have eight circuits to feed from the sub panel.
Bathroom 2
Outside outlet 1
Window AC 1
lights and outlets 4

It would be nice to have two open slots in the sub panel in case I need another circuit.

I think I can cover the 7326 amps with a 40 amp breaker feeding from main panel with 6/3 wire to a sub panel. Is this okay?

Will this panel work? Shop Eaton Cutler-Hammer 24-Circuit 12-Space 125-Amp All-in-One/Combination Main Lug Load Center at Lowes.com

Can someone provide me a link to a good subpanel for this?

Why not combine the bathroom outlet with the outside outlet. Both require a GFCI. Also it seems unlikely that you would be putting a large load on the outside outlet and bathroom outlet at the same time. You could use this same circuit on some other outlets in the building. Also if this is a garage building you may need GFCI on all the outlets.

 

[BobRip]

What are you loads? Are they on most of the time? For example you would probably not use two power tools at the same time in a small building. Heat is a huge factor. You probably need some kind of heat. Maybe not where you live.

 

[grsthegreat]

Why not combine the bathroom outlet with the outside outlet. Both require a GFCI. Also it seems unlikely that you would be putting a large load on the outside outlet and bathroom outlet at the same time. You could use this same circuit on some other outlets in the building. Also if this is a garage building you may need GFCI on all the outlets.

Actually in an outbuilding ALL the outlets will need to be GFCI'd, so share the outside outlet with a regular inside outlet directly on the other side.

 

[BobRip]

Actually in an outbuilding ALL the outlets will need to be GFCI'd, so share the outside outlet with a regular inside outlet directly on the other side.

That is what I had to do in my garage.