My understanding of charging a battery is quite a bit different. A battery that has been discharged to lets say 50% of its capacity will charge back to 80% fairly quickly but the last 20% will take much longer to charge. If high voltage/amperage is continually charging the system then the battery will will recieve a high surface charge but the battery plates will have more electricity then they are able to accept and this will cause the battery electrolyte to boil over. So the last 20% of the battery will need to be charged at a lower rate for a longer period of time. This 20% is probably the only portion of the battery used on a tractor since it's main use is starting the tractor and typically is not used in the running of the engine.
Battery Boiling Over
- Thread starter Cdawg
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My understanding of charging a battery is quite a bit different. A battery that has been discharged to lets say 50% of its capacity will charge back to 80% fairly quickly but the last 20% will take much longer to charge. If high voltage/amperage is continually charging the system then the battery will will recieve a high surface charge but the battery plates will have more electricity then they are able to accept and this will cause the battery electrolyte to boil over. So the last 20% of the battery will need to be charged at a lower rate for a longer period of time. This 20% is probably the only portion of the battery used on a tractor since it's main use is starting the tractor and typically is not used in the running of the engine.
SPYDERLK
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I think you have 2 problems. If either werent there you wouldnt notice the other and it would be harmless:
1] Your battery float voltage cpability is substandard for a battery in good shape. A new battery in good shape should rise to 14.9/15V with a charge level of an amp or less. New batteries that I give a "forming" charge to rise to 15.25V with a charge level of 0.25A. The charge level of 4.3A with your batt not rising above 14.5 is way out of wack. Yes, a float at 14.5 is an overcharge condition, but the batt should rise to that V and buck the charge down to a fractional Amp. In your case it is not so youre getting a heavy boil vs just a little bubbling.
2] Your Vreg is not doing classic good batt tending. The good ones charge fairly hard til the batt rises to ~14.6, and then taper back to a float in the 13.8 to 14.2 range. This is healthy for all batts and is absolutely necessary for those that cannot float to high voltage. Maybe your Vreg is trying to reach this ~14.6 point and just never sees it so doesnt cut back.:confused2:
I run into various top float values, but verry seldom see one that wont drop to 1 amp or less on a 14.6 charging voltage. I dont know whether you can take that battery back for exchange, but that would be your easiest "fix". ... I have a tractor that charges at 15V. I put a batt in it that I found would float to near 16V at fractional Amps. Its been in the tractor 2yrs. I checked the electrolyte level after a yr and it was good. Probably should check it again. It can make you nervous knowing the batt is being maintained at 15V ... but when I think of the batts exhibited characteristic during formation of bucking a 15.25 charge potential down to 0.20A its no surprise that it stays healthy.
larry
dave1949
Super Star Member
Might be worth the time to take the battery back and have it load tested. I was thinking a fully charged LA battery produces 2.2 volts per cell. If the battery is fully charged and cables off so no drain overnight, 12.8v might be on the low side.
Dave.
Correct, I did not want to go into that much detail. The Victor charger addresses that problem with a 3 step charging profile.
SPYDERLK
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I run into various top float values, but verry seldom see one that wont drop to 1 amp or less on a 14.6 charging voltage. I dont know whether you can take that battery back for exchange, but that would be your easiest "fix". ... I have a tractor that charges at 15V. I put a batt in it that I found would float to near 16V at fractional Amps. Its been in the tractor 2yrs. I checked the electrolyte level after a yr and it was good. Probably should check it again. It can make you nervous knowing the batt is being maintained at 15V ... but when I think of the batts exhibited characteristic during formation of bucking a 15.25 charge potential down to 0.20A its no surprise that it stays healthy.
Is your electrolyte at the proper level or overfull? Sometimes new batts are overfull. Doesnt take much overcharge to make them weep. Check out a battery mat to capture and neutralize spill. Also at a several Amp float charge level it will need attention to fluid every few months.
larry
MAXX-1N and MAXX-65N from Walmart for about $80. They are 1000CA/850CCA batts. The one quoted above was a MAXX-1N which they dont make anymore. That particular batt was the best Iv seen. The 65Ns act about the same. I have one of each in "stock" new. The 1N has seen serious starting duty and is degraded because I ran it about half way down and didnt recharge it for a week. It takes about an Amp to float it at 15V now. The 65N is brand new and i just finished its formation charge -- 15.08V @ 0.25A. I didnt try cranking it up to 16V to see what it would buck to.
Is your electrolyte at the proper level or overfull? Sometimes new batts are overfull. Doesnt take much overcharge to make them weep. Check out a battery mat to capture and neutralize spill. Also at a several Amp float charge level it will need attention to fluid every few months.
larry
Hawghauler
Silver Member
A properly functioning 12 volt charging system should operate in the range of 13.8 to 14.3. It sounds like you have a simple regulator problem. If you are handy you should be able to crack open the alternator and replace it. If not, just buy a new unit and turn the old one in for a core reimbursement. Optima batteries have a good reputation, but the battery is no more the problem than the steering wheel is. The battery may be junk now as they don't take kindly to over charges. Fix the regulator first.
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Wow! There sure is a lot of good info flyin' around here. By good, I mean absolutely correct info that may or may not apply to New Holland's charging system for the TC40D tractor. We have "close to right" and "sorta right" answers and perfect answers for charging systems in general, but nobody seems to be quoting the New Holland specs. My personal opinion, for what it is worth, is that Cdawg has a NH system and he will have to live with that system as it is designed or take on the job of re-engineering his whole charging system. Please feel free to challenge me on any of the numbers I quote, but if it is not in the NH manual, I won't quote it. Here are the numbers:
Alt. Adjusting Voltage: (The voltage applied to the battery with 5 amps or less of charge current) is 14.5 to 15 volts.
Satisfactory Maximum Charge Current: @ 2000 rpm, over 70% of the 40A rating of the alternator. @ 2500 rpm, 30 amps or more.
The voltage regulator is internal to the alternator, having three terminals: B - Battery, L - light (connected directly to the field winding to aid in initial field buildup), R - regulator sensing. The is also a P-terminal that comes off the rotor windings to provide pulsed input to the tachometer.
This is the charging system we have on our tractors. It is what it is whether we like it or not.
The early tractors all had battery outgassing/overflow problems. Perhaps it was due to nothing more than the Bernoulli principle at work as radiator cooling air increased speed around/over the battery and caused the pressure to decrease, essentially sucking gas and fluid out of the battery. In 2004, New Holland developed a cover for the battery with a hose to direct fumes and overflow away from the radiator and battery area. This solved or reduced the problems tremendously in the newer tractors. I'm sure NH got tired of replacing radiators, piping, and battery shelf components under warranty. If it hadn't been hurting their bottom line, we probably would all still be fighting this problem.
For those of us with the problem, most of us got tired of having this problem and started looking for solutions. I had my radiator and HST coolant hoses replaced under warranty, but 6 months later, they looked almost as bad as before. Reconfiguring my battery and replacing with the Optima was my solution. I can assure you that it is a long term solution. It works so well that I don't even think about it until somebody like Cdawg comes along and has the problem.
So Haymaker, yes, I am giving Optima a "shameless plug." I'd even go so far as to say that I am their champion happy customer. I think your post was well-meaning, but a bit of a "drive-by" response of a new member who has not read the volumes of information on this problem in the New Holland forums. That's okay! You are aware of this now. The idea of not fixing the symptoms is one that I also champion. If this were not a real solution, I wouldn't post it. I can say with full confidence that the Optima battery will fix this problem. Are there other solutions? Probably, but I am going with what I know best.:thumbsup:
Alt. Adjusting Voltage: (The voltage applied to the battery with 5 amps or less of charge current) is 14.5 to 15 volts.
Satisfactory Maximum Charge Current: @ 2000 rpm, over 70% of the 40A rating of the alternator. @ 2500 rpm, 30 amps or more.
The voltage regulator is internal to the alternator, having three terminals: B - Battery, L - light (connected directly to the field winding to aid in initial field buildup), R - regulator sensing. The is also a P-terminal that comes off the rotor windings to provide pulsed input to the tachometer.
This is the charging system we have on our tractors. It is what it is whether we like it or not.
The early tractors all had battery outgassing/overflow problems. Perhaps it was due to nothing more than the Bernoulli principle at work as radiator cooling air increased speed around/over the battery and caused the pressure to decrease, essentially sucking gas and fluid out of the battery. In 2004, New Holland developed a cover for the battery with a hose to direct fumes and overflow away from the radiator and battery area. This solved or reduced the problems tremendously in the newer tractors. I'm sure NH got tired of replacing radiators, piping, and battery shelf components under warranty. If it hadn't been hurting their bottom line, we probably would all still be fighting this problem.
For those of us with the problem, most of us got tired of having this problem and started looking for solutions. I had my radiator and HST coolant hoses replaced under warranty, but 6 months later, they looked almost as bad as before. Reconfiguring my battery and replacing with the Optima was my solution. I can assure you that it is a long term solution. It works so well that I don't even think about it until somebody like Cdawg comes along and has the problem.
So Haymaker, yes, I am giving Optima a "shameless plug." I'd even go so far as to say that I am their champion happy customer. I think your post was well-meaning, but a bit of a "drive-by" response of a new member who has not read the volumes of information on this problem in the New Holland forums. That's okay! You are aware of this now. The idea of not fixing the symptoms is one that I also champion. If this were not a real solution, I wouldn't post it. I can say with full confidence that the Optima battery will fix this problem. Are there other solutions? Probably, but I am going with what I know best.:thumbsup:
Wow! There sure is a lot of good info flyin' around here. By good, I mean absolutely correct info that may or may not apply to New Holland's charging system for the TC40D tractor. We have "close to right" and "sorta right" answers and perfect answers for charging systems in general, but nobody seems to be quoting the New Holland specs. My personal opinion, for what it is worth, is that Cdawg has a NH system and he will have to live with that system as it is designed or take on the job of re-engineering his whole charging system. Please feel free to challenge me on any of the numbers I quote, but if it is not in the NH manual, I won't quote it. Here are the numbers:
Alt. Adjusting Voltage: (The voltage applied to the battery with 5 amps or less of charge current) is 14.5 to 15 volts.
Satisfactory Maximum Charge Current: @ 2000 rpm, over 70% of the 40A rating of the alternator. @ 2500 rpm, 30 amps or more.
The voltage regulator is internal to the alternator, having three terminals: B - Battery, L - light (connected directly to the field winding to aid in initial field buildup), R - regulator sensing. The is also a P-terminal that comes off the rotor windings to provide pulsed input to the tachometer.
This is the charging system we have on our tractors. It is what it is whether we like it or not.
The early tractors all had battery outgassing/overflow problems. Perhaps it was due to nothing more than the Bernoulli principle at work as radiator cooling air increased speed around/over the battery and caused the pressure to decrease, essentially sucking gas and fluid out of the battery. In 2004, New Holland developed a cover for the battery with a hose to direct fumes and overflow away from the radiator and battery area. This solved or reduced the problems tremendously in the newer tractors. I'm sure NH got tired of replacing radiators, piping, and battery shelf components under warranty. If it hadn't been hurting their bottom line, we probably would all still be fighting this problem.
For those of us with the problem, most of us got tired of having this problem and started looking for solutions. I had my radiator and HST coolant hoses replaced under warranty, but 6 months later, they looked almost as bad as before. Reconfiguring my battery and replacing with the Optima was my solution. I can assure you that it is a long term solution. It works so well that I don't even think about it until somebody like Cdawg comes along and has the problem.
So Haymaker, yes, I am giving Optima a "shameless plug." I'd even go so far as to say that I am their champion happy customer. I think your post was well-meaning, but a bit of a "drive-by" response of a new member who has not read the volumes of information on this problem in the New Holland forums. That's okay! You are aware of this now. The idea of not fixing the symptoms is one that I also champion. If this were not a real solution, I wouldn't post it. I can say with full confidence that the Optima battery will fix this problem. Are there other solutions? Probably, but I am going with what I know best.:thumbsup:
Thanks for this post. IT sounds like the alternator was poorly engineered. I looked at the Optima battery at the local shop and their price was $189. I'll have to see if I can find it cheaper. In my situation I just bought a new battery so I have a bit of a problem. This post also helps me out in that now I know that there is nothing wrong with either the alternator or the regulator. I plan on putting the battery in a box and will put a battery mat inside the box. On the same note I am going to contact the local shop that tested the alternator and see if he can custom engineer my engineer or perhaps trade my alternator for a different one that will have a lower float charge.
SPYDERLK
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You could put a 50A+ diode in the line that the alt uses to charge the batt, and sense batt voltage on the alt side of the diode. This will keep your batt V 0.5 to 0.7 below the voltage of the alt.
larry