"Best" synthetic hydraulic fluid for the money?

[KMA]

I know this topic comes up every now and again, and there are some differences in opinions and recommendations... By being specific, I'm hoping to get some advice from the forum regarding my particular "requirements".

I've decided to completely replace the motor oil used for hydraulic fluid in my PT-422. I'll feel more comfortable with a UTF type synthetic oil in the 10w30 ish range, but don't want to spend anymore that I have to.

Here are some estimated prices on the two options I know about (the UTF Red info maybe a bit dated):

Amsoil Synthetic Hydraulic Oil (5w30)
https://www.amsoil.com/storefront/ath.aspx
2 x 5 gal pail = ~ $250 + shipping

TRC UTF Red (10w30)
Texas Refinery Corp. Specialty Lubricants and Greases TRC
2 x 6 gal pail = ~ $200 + $20 shipping

Chevron Synthetic All Weather THF
http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/...nthetic-chevron-synthetic-all-weather-thf.pdf
2 x 5 gal pail = ~200 (don't know where to purchase this yet...)

[edit]added the Chevron product... don't know a lot about it, but saw some discussions with positive feedback[/edit]

Has anyone found a good deal on any of these products, or a recommendation of one over the others? Has anyone come across another option for a multi-viscosity, synthetic hydraulic oil? Price is a factor of course. Local availability would be a plus too. I live where it gets cold in the winters and hot in the summers, so I feel 10w30 is the narrowest range I'll feel comfortable with. (Although I don't use the tractor in the winter very much...)

Also, does anyone know what amount is needed to completely replace the hydraulic oil in the PT422?

Thanks in advance!

 

[MossRoad]

I'm fairly sure it has a 10 gallon hydraulic tank. Then you have to figure how much is in the lines, pumps, etc...

Be sure to bleed properly before the engine is allowed to fire up.

 

[KMA]

I'm fairly sure it has a 10 gallon hydraulic tank. Then you have to figure how much is in the lines, pumps, etc...

Be sure to bleed properly before the engine is allowed to fire up.

Thanks MR. That is what I thought on the tank size. Once I get ready to replace the oil, I'll be back to the forum for more advice I'm sure.

 

[Wayne County Hose]

My personal opinion, if it was my machine, would to put ATF in it. I personally do not believe that the synthetic oils are worth the extra cost. Oil gets dirty from outside sources, so the extended intervals don't gain you anything as far as I'm concerned. I've seen ATF flow like water at -50 fahrenheit, so flow in the cold is okay. Maybe PT calls for 10w-30 oil, but I doubt they could give a valid reason why ATF wouldn't work. There are thousands of machines out there 75 years old and older that have never seen synthetic oil and they run fine. The people that swear by synthetic would lead you to believe that nothing can last more than 5 minutes without synthetic. Mind you, I didn't want to start any peeing matches, and refuse to partake in any, this is just my personal opinion.

 

[Bob999]

The TRC UTF red fluid is not synthetic. If your criteria is synthetic it doesn't belong on your list.

As to the suggestion to use ATF I personally would not do that because the viscosity is quite low. While this is great for cold starts it is not likely to provide good performance at operating temperatures. A number of posters have reported going to higher viscosity fluids ( 10w-40/50) to improve hot weather operation--particularly hill climbing.

An alternative is a generic UTF--which should work reasonably well, although the high temperature viscosity is not as good as a 10w-40 oil. It is relatively inexpensive at places like Tractor Supply or WalMart and has more anti wear additives than motor oil.

 

[KMA]

Bob, thanks for the clarification on the TRC UTF Red. Actually, I also read the Chevron Synthetic is actually a blend, and not fully synthetic. I guess whatever I go with doesn't necessarily have to be synthetic, but I figured if I'm spending a significant amount of money, it might as well be. My original post does seem to focus on synthetic, but I'm really looking for the best UTF oil I can get for the money. Do you know anyone that has experience with something like the TSC Premium UTF? I'd be interested in hearing their opinion.

WCH, I appreciate your input. Again, my post stresses the synthetic thing more than I actually intended to. The additives in these higher end hydraulic oils claim to last much longer between changings since they prevent rusting, etc. So far I only put about 75 hours a year on my PT, so the longer the life span the better. I've read that ATF is far too thin for the high temps seen in the PT. Bob mentioned this too. I'm mostly concerned with the performance when running hot, and less about cold weather.

My PT makes that "screeching" sound quite a bit, and I can feel the performance drop on hot days when working hard. I'm hoping a quality oil meant for hydraulic systems will help, plus I'll sleep better believing it will make my machine last longer (whether it actually does or not...). I'm really hoping for someone to mention a great deal on a product similar to the ones I've mentioned.

Thanks for the comments guys. Keep them comin'!

 

[SpringHollow]

If you are concerned about hot weather and mainly use this in the sumer, I would stick with the higher viscosity motor oil. I am saying this out of ignorance but if they wanted a thinner fluid, they would have gone with 5w30. You can ask PT if they recommend the fluids you are considering. One reason they se motor oil is the cost but I believe they are also using it for the viscosity range which is not available in a UTF to my knowledge.

Ken

 

[Wayne County Hose]

Modern ATF is 0w-20, the older stuff (Dexron 3 and earlier) is 10w-30. Modern automotive trannys run hotter than the PT.

 

[MossRoad]

Modern ATF is 0w-20, the older stuff (Dexron 3 and earlier) is 10w-30. Modern automotive trannys run hotter than the PT.

How hot do transmissions run? Just curious, because I do not know. PTs run pretty hot, that's for sure. How hot? I do not know that, either.

If I were going to replace my hydraulic fluid in my PT I would go with as low a bottom number as possible to ease starting, perhaps a 0 or 5, and go with a 40 for the top, because that is what is in there and that is what PT recommended to me. I don't know if I can justify the use of a full synthetic for the cost, figuring $5.00 a quart, $20.00 a gallon or $200.00 for a 10 gallon change. However, if you divide that by say, 5 years, that's only $40.00 a year, or less than a dollar an hour at my current average of 50 hours a year. Hey, I might just talk myself into it.

 

[Wayne County Hose]

How hot do transmissions run? Just curious, because I do not know. PTs run pretty hot, that's for sure. How hot? I do not know that, either.

Ideally, under 210 degrees. Actual, in the tranny, the fluid will get to 275 degrees. This is coming from a friend of mine that has run a tranny rebuilding shop for over 20 years.
Also, cars use the engine coolant to cool the tranny fluid. Most car thermostats open at about 190 degrees, so the medium used to cool tranny fluid is 190 or hotter.
If I owned one of these PT's, I'd be more concerned with having clean fluid in it. One of the jobs of hydraulic fluid is to carry contaminants away from critical components. Many particles are too small for the filter to hold, but large enough to cause wear if left in over time. This is the main reason I am against leaving fluid in for a long time. Leaving synthetic fluid in longer is a big selling point for the synthetic manufacturers, it's a way to justify the cost. But, I want to get those wear particles out of my system. So, I would rather use a dino oil and change it regularly.
This is just my way of looking at it. Other opinions have their merit also.

 

[KMA]

Ken, some PTs run 10w30 and some 10w40 from what I see on the forum and read in the PT owner's manuals and labels. According to older posts on this topic, PT was asked about oils like UTF Red and they responded saying the machines would "love it". That's what I read anyway. The Amsoil product would cover essentially the same range as the oil I currently have in my PT422, maybe even a bit better on the cold side. I've also read that a good hydraulic oil will result in a slightly cooler running machine.

WCH, I'll have to look into the Dextron 3 and older 10w30 ATF fluid you mentioned. I know there are a lot of people out there that swear by ATF fluid, so you're definitely not alone.

There is a lot of talk about cost differences between oils (e.g. synthetic vs dino, etc). Cost is obviously a big concern, and one of the things I'm considering. I also need to consider the time I spent researching all of this stuff, and the time needed to service and repair my tractor. I need my PT right when I need it, and can't "afford" for it to go down very much. I have so little time between my job and kids ball games and working around the new house. How much is my time worth? For example, the hours spent researching and trying to learn what I can in order to save a few bucks, or the time I spend working on my tractor when I could be doing other things that need doing?

I guess at some point I need to just "pull the trigger" and do what I feel is right, otherwise I end up spending more time/money in the end.

Thanks guys.

 

[Bob999]

Ideally, under 210 degrees. Actual, in the tranny, the fluid will get to 275 degrees. This is coming from a friend of mine that has run a tranny rebuilding shop for over 20 years.
Also, cars use the engine coolant to cool the tranny fluid. Most car thermostats open at about 190 degrees, so the medium used to cool tranny fluid is 190 or hotter.

My understanding is that the transmission fluid cooler is located in the bottom or output side of the radiator. While the cooling fluid enters the radiator at 190 degrees plus it is significantly cooler when it leaves the radiator--and when it does the heat exchange with the transmission fluid.

 

[Phils]

There is a lot of talk about cost differences between oils (e.g. synthetic vs dino, etc). Cost is obviously a big concern, and one of the things I'm considering. I also need to consider the time I spent researching all of this stuff, and the time needed to service and repair my tractor. I need my PT right when I need it, and can't "afford" for it to go down very much. I have so little time between my job and kids ball games and working around the new house. How much is my time worth? For example, the hours spent researching and trying to learn what I can in order to save a few bucks, or the time I spend working on my tractor when I could be doing other things that need doing?

I guess at some point I need to just "pull the trigger" and do what I feel is right, otherwise I end up spending more time/money in the end.

Thanks guys.

Kevin,

My method would save you money and also give you better lubrication.

I've used synthetic lubricants since 1977, and for a decade it was in my
over the road semi-trucks. I will not elaborate on the lubrication experiences I've had, but please understand there have been many.

On my PT-422, I use synthetic for the engine (after the initial break-in). These engines run HOT! That's one of synthetic's strong points and I doubt anybody will dispute that.

For the PT hydraulics, at each filter change I replenish with synthetic 20-50. That means that each time I change filters, I increase the amount of synthetic in my "blend". I also increase viscosity a little bit each time, which for my hot climate is a benefit.

Is it worth it to change out all the hyd fluid with synthetic? No, not in my opinion. Unless there's some other reason to change all 10 gallons, of course.

One truck (for instance) was a Kenworth w/ Detroit Diesel/ Allison combination. It got lousy mileage by design. I increased MPG from 4.5 to 5 by switching to syn oil. (At over 100K miles per year, that's a big savings!) Using "para-synthetic" (a mix of syn and dino) gave me the same mileage. I changed oil every 50,000 miles and tried it both ways a few times, then just used the blend to save $$.

Also, I've tried almost every brand of synthetic and found no noticeable difference between them.

Phil

 

[BobRip]

I am running Mobil 1, 20W50 in my transmission on my 422. It came with 5w30 and I noticed a lot of torque loss once it got hot. Once I put in the Mobil 1, I do notice that it is "stiff" when cold. That means that there is better coupling between the engine and wheels. Once it has warmed up it's about right. I feel that this was a very worth while improvement. Do be aware that PT now ships with 10W40, instead of 5W30 and that alone would probably help, but I have not tried it.

 

[KMA]

Phil and Bob,

Is the 20w50 you are using motor oil or hydraulic oil? If motor oil, how do you feel about the specific additives that hydraulic oils use to help with foaming, etc? Also, can the "stiffness" experienced in the cold weather hurt any part of the system?

Thanks again for everyone's input, it is very helpful.

 

[BobRip]

Phil and Bob,

Is the 20w50 you are using motor oil or hydraulic oil? If motor oil, how do you feel about the specific additives that hydraulic oils use to help with foaming, etc? Also, can the "stiffness" experienced in the cold weather hurt any part of the system?

Thanks again for everyone's input, it is very helpful.

It's a motor oil. I called up Mobil and asked them about the use of Mobil 1 as a hydraulic fluid. They felt it was a good choice. I don't think the sitffness is a problem, it actually might be helpful. It may make it harder to start and mine does have a problem at 32 and below. I don't know at 40. I keep it in a heated garage.
Anyway, I think very few people have enough data to make these decisions other than to go with PT recommendations or a lubricant supplier. Since Mobil says it's OK, I am happy. They have decades of experience with Mobil 1. It works so much better than the 5W30 that I feel it's worth the very low (probably no) risk.

I have never seen any foaming.
I have been using Mobil 1 for about 5 years (if memory serves me right, which it usually does not).

 

[KMA]

It's a motor oil. I called up Mobil and asked them about the use of Mobil 1 as a hydraulic fluid. They felt it was a good choice. I don't think the sitffness is a problem, it actually might be helpful. It may make it harder to start and mine does have a problem at 32 and below. I don't know at 40. I keep it in a heated garage.
Anyway, I think very few people have enough data to make these decisions other than to go with PT recommendations or a lubricant supplier. Since Mobil says it's OK, I am happy. They have decades of experience with Mobil 1. It works so much better than the 5W30 that I feel it's worth the very low (probably no) risk.

I have never seen any foaming.
I have been using Mobil 1 for about 5 years (if memory serves me right, which it usually does not).

Bob, sorry for all the questions...

Did you notice any other changes, other than the better hot weather performance and stiffness in cold weather? For example, did you sometimes have that "screaching" noise turning too hard, etc before and it is minimized/gone now with the new oil? Or any other similar examples of differences/improvements?

Thanks again!

 

[BobRip]

Bob, sorry for all the questions...

Did you notice any other changes, other than the better hot weather performance and stiffness in cold weather? For example, did you sometimes have that "screaching" noise turning too hard, etc before and it is minimized/gone now with the new oil? Or any other similar examples of differences/improvements?

Thanks again!

I was able to climb hills better. I can't think of anything else. It's been a long time, but it seems that this was this only change.
Question are OK.

 

[Bob999]

how do you feel about the specific additives that hydraulic oils use to help with foaming, etc?

Case make an additive for hydraulic fluid. Case uses motor oil in many of its hydraulic machinery and then the additive that adds a form of zinc (an anti wear additive). Presumable this is to get the advantages of motor oil along with the anti wear additives that are in most hydraulic fluids. I am presently running motor oil with the case additive in my 1845. I really haven't noticed any significant difference since using the additive but my hope is that it will be beneficial over time.

 

[ldabe]

Great posts! keep it going, very interesting.

I don't have much to add, except I do have a 10w30 syn in my engine, and 5w30 non-syn in the hydro.

In could weather the hydro takes about 5-10 min. to work easy. As for the eng. I have no idea how hot it runs, so to try and be safe, that is why I use the syn.

But I do not have enough knowledge to really pass anything on to be helpful.

Phil seems to be the one with the most experiance and evidence, IMHO.