Big announcement from GM !!!!!!

[workinallthetime]

$35K will get you a new BMW, if that's your definition of decent. $25K will get you a 5 year old diesel 4x4 1 ton, at least in my neck of the woods.

How about a brand new Toyota Camry LE, MSRP ~ $20K, and a 2001 F350 dually V10 on sale near me for $11K. Think you are going to find anything that's anywhere near as comfy to drive as that car and pulls anything like that truck for $31K or even $41K?

Insurance will be a little more (two rigs instead of one) but not twice as much. The added insurance cost will be more than offset by the gas savings. Repair costs will be much less, as your putting most of your miles on the Toyota Camry. And when you decide to get a new car, your truck should still be going strong because you haven't put many miles on it.

i see now why we are not eye to eye on this subject. i drive a $46,000 (sticker) 1/2 ton and my wife drives a $55,000 (sticker) denali. I also would not consider ever supporting the jap car market and ford well i wont go there. I understand what your saying but a kodiac c4500 would pull the guts out of that ford 1 ton for about 35k brand new.
HIGHBEAM i am on the same page as you, no way im driving a can of coke down the road around here, I have seen what happens when they chalenge a 1 ton

 

[Toiyabe]

I find it kinda strange that folks here think so differently about tractors and trucks.

For example if someone asks for advice on this site about what tractor to buy if they have a lot of little jobs and a few big jobs, most folks will recommend getting a new CUT sized for the small jobs, and hire/rent/buy used for the big jobs.

For vehicles however, most people seem to want a one-size-fits-all solution.

 

[Highbeam]

"For vehicles however, most people seem to want a one-size-fits-all solution."

Apples and oranges.

I can hire a farmer to come over and disc my field for 30$ per hour. I can probably hire a guy to come over and hook my trailer to his truck and tow my tractor to my remote property for 100$ per hour. While I am at the remote property brushhogging the hired truck driver is making 100$ per hour sitting there in his pickup. Or when I am camping in a travel trailer that hired driver is making some good money sitting in his truck at the campground. While I am cutting an splitting firewood, the guy is sitting there billing me.

The truck is a necessary tool and there is almost no penalty for having too much tool. If you wanted a vehicle that was ideal for each job then you would have several vehicles, insurances, payments, etc.

 

[Builder]

"For vehicles however, most people seem to want a one-size-fits-all solution."

Apples and oranges.

I can hire a farmer to come over and disc my field for 30$ per hour. I can probably hire a guy to come over and hook my trailer to his truck and tow my tractor to my remote property for 100$ per hour. While I am at the remote property brushhogging the hired truck driver is making 100$ per hour sitting there in his pickup. Or when I am camping in a travel trailer that hired driver is making some good money sitting in his truck at the campground. While I am cutting an splitting firewood, the guy is sitting there billing me.

The truck is a necessary tool and there is almost no penalty for having too much tool. If you wanted a vehicle that was ideal for each job then you would have several vehicles, insurances, payments, etc.

Except that the upfront cost for bigger tools means less money in the bank. A big penalty if you ask me.

 

[Toiyabe]

Not to mention the much higher operating cost for the too-big tool.

 

[workinallthetime]

a small tractor can do almost all of the same work as a big tractor just takes more time
a small truck can not do the same work as a big truck safely.

a guy with a bx23 can do the same work as a guy with an l39 for the most part
a guy with an ranger cant pull or haul as much as the guy with the 1 ton.

sure there are exceptions to this but for the most part its facts.

i puill a b3030 tlb around with a car hauler trailer and a 1/2 ton rated at 10,500 lbs. i get the comfort and fuel economy of a 1/2 ton with the ability to tow bigger loads than other past half tons. Do i need a 3/4 ton or one ton yes, can my business pay for one, not yet. So i get by towing within my limits and enjoy driving the rest of the time.

 

[Jarrett]

Why not get a car for 95% of the time when you need a car and a used 1 ton gasser for the 5% of the time you need a truck? It'll be cheaper, and you'll have the right tool for each job.

Unless you put a lot of miles on the truck, the diesel's fuel savings won't pay back its initial cost. And there's no point in putting those miles on a truck when a car will do the job.

I don't know about everyone else here, but I need a truck way more than 5% of the time. Maybe I need a 3/4 or 1-ton for only 5% of the time, but for about 85-90% of the time I need a truck. I don't need my truck for work. I just drive it to work. But what if I'm at work one day and realize I need to grab a sheet of plywood, a couple 2x4's and 3 sacks of concrete mix from the lumber yard or HD/Lowe's to work on a little project that evening. If I was in a daily driver car, I wouldn't be able to stop after work and get it. I'm kind of spontaneous and decide to do stuff like that alot. That's why I like to have a truck that can be a daily driver, get great fuel mileage, can carry light cargo/loads very frequently and can carry pretty heavy loads occasionally. I'd take a 1/2 ton deisel in a heartbeat (wait, make it a Ford )

 

[Jaybr]

I'm with you guys. I drive my truck daily to and from customer offices, but I'm constantly carrying medium loads in the bed. Just yesterday I stopped on the way home and picked up 400 lbs of lime and 400 lbs of dog food, can't do that in a car.

I've never needed more tow capacity than the 9200 lbs of my 1/2 ton, and don't tow all that often. I like the nice ride, comfort, and features in my 1/2 ton and have no need for a bigger truck right now.

I only use my old 95 1500 diesel for my hunting rig, mileage is good but it won't tow like my Titan.

 

[Builder]

a small tractor can do almost all of the same work as a big tractor just takes more time
a small truck can not do the same work as a big truck safely.

a guy with a bx23 can do the same work as a guy with an l39 for the most part
a guy with an ranger cant pull or haul as much as the guy with the 1 ton.

sure there are exceptions to this but for the most part its facts.

i puill a b3030 tlb around with a car hauler trailer and a 1/2 ton rated at 10,500 lbs. i get the comfort and fuel economy of a 1/2 ton with the ability to tow bigger loads than other past half tons. Do i need a 3/4 ton or one ton yes, can my business pay for one, not yet. So i get by towing within my limits and enjoy driving the rest of the time.

With the exception of dig depth and maybe the ability to backhoe out heavy boulders or stumps, you're right. The backhoe is the kicker, but your FEL can do the same work, albeit slower. You might not be able to load as high of a dumptruck, either.

 

[Toiyabe]

To each his own.

I spent a little over $3000 on fuel last year. If I drove a 1/2 ton truck instead of my little Ranger, I could have easily spent $4500. There's lots of things I'd rather do with $1500 than give it to Hugo Chavez. I'd be driving a Civic or Corrolla if I thought they would take the 16 miles of dirt road driving I do every day.

I have a 1 ton van (~15 mpg empty) that I use for towing. Driving that in to town instead of my Ranger (~26 mpg) costs about $6.77 extra at current fuel prices. Makes a big difference when mulitplied out by 5 days/week * 52 weeks/year.

If Chevy can make a diesel 1/2 ton that gets at least 25 mpg and costs less than a brand new 4 cylinder Ranger plus a 10 year old 1 ton (say $25k total), then I'll buy it. Otherwise I'll stick with the two vehicle option.

 

[Highbeam]

Except that the upfront cost for bigger tools means less money in the bank. A big penalty if you ask me.

Not necessarily, as workinallthetime pointed out a new half ton truck CAN cost more than a much more capable C4500 Kodiak. You don't save much money at all by buying the lighter duty but still full sized truck. Tool cost, the same, one much stronger.

 

[Highbeam]

Not to mention the much higher operating cost for the too-big tool.

Who told you that? The mpg of a duramax or cummins diesel is as good or better than any V8 gas powered full sized half ton. Often debated but most will agree that the costs are not "much" higher.

I tow a lot. I will tow my tractor and trailer tomorrow for 100 miles and get 10 mpg. My current uses would be more ideally suited to a 3/4 or one ton truck but my current truck is paid for and does the job. My safety margin is just pretty small which by some folks' logic means that I use the ideal tool since I utilize almost every bit of the truck's capability. Other folks would leave more of a safety margin and I tend to agree with them after towing heavy for the last several years.

Where is the penalty for having a more capable tool? Today there is none. Tomorrow there may be smaller diesel engines available with correspondingly lower fuel consumption which would be a clear penalty for too much tool.

 

[EquipmentJunkie]

I am looking forward to FINALLY having 1/2-ton diesel pickups again. Dodge, GM, Ford, and Nissan are all on the record as having 1/2-ton diesels coming for '09...model year '09 or just calendar year '09 is yet to be seen. With that much competition, it looks like a buyer's market.

What I am a bit concerned about is the fact that all of these new engines will be clean-sheet designs with no track record. The initial 1/2-ton diesel buyers could be well-acquainted with their local dealer's Service Department waiting room. I, personally, am willing to take that risk.

More than anything else, I am concerned that your average "Joe Stupid" will decide to buy a 1/2-ton diesel pickup to do a 3/4-ton pickup's work. Unfortunately, Joe Stupid is governed by the same physics laws as you and I. Will you be in Joe's path when he receives his first lesson on his 1/2-ton's panic braking ability with the 10,000-lb. trailer he hitched behind it?

 

[Toiyabe]

The operating cost of any full size pickup, diesel or gas, is greater than a car. If you use your truck mostly for things that a car can't do, that's fine. If, like most folks I see on the road, you use your truck mostly for things a car can do easily you are wasting money.

That's why I recommend using a car for car jobs and a truck for truck jobs. Just like you would use a utility tractor for plowing large fields and a push mower for mowing small lawns. Actually most people (though probably not many on this forum) would be better off having a car and renting a truck for the few times they actually need it.

 

[EquipmentJunkie]

The mpg of a duramax or cummins diesel is as good or better than any V8 gas powered full sized half ton. Often debated but most will agree that the costs are not "much" higher.

Where is the penalty for having a more capable tool? Today there is none. Tomorrow there may be smaller diesel engines available with correspondingly lower fuel consumption which would be a clear penalty for too much tool.

I agree. My '98 Ram with the 24-valve Cummins has delivered nearly 23-mpg over its last several tanks of fuel. That was commuting mileage, not highway...and my computing was pencil & paper method, not a trip computer.

Also, as my pickup gets older, the gap between a comparable '98 Ram gasser and my '98 Ram diesel widens. Diesels hold their value...the cost of entry is higher, but it comes back.

I wish that I could get a V6 diesel in a 1/2-ton that only produced 200-hp. and 350 ft./lbs. of torque. I want the fuel mileage. It looks like the hot-rodders will win out, however.

 

[Highbeam]

That's why I recommend using a car for car jobs and a truck for truck jobs. Just like you would use a utility tractor for plowing large fields and a push mower for mowing small lawns.

Come'on now. Yes, I agree that we all should have a lawnmower for mowing by the house and the big tractor for plowing. You can conceivably own both because the lawn mower cost 150$ and the tractor 15,000$. The fuel savings and wear and tear savings on the big tractor will pay for the lawnmower right away. The mower will last for several years and that makes this a good investment. A second vehicle is not going to be 1/100th the cost of a truck.

You'll spend 10s of thousands of dollars to buy that car for car jobs. So how long will it take to break even? The 10,000 dollar estimated depreciation that the car will suffer in one year will buy a lot of fuel for the truck. The mpg is not much better.

I won't spend 1000$ to save 100$.

 

[workinallthetime]

ok i think some how my comparison price wise of a 1/2 ton to a 3/4 ton got out of whack.
from the gmc.com
base mosel prices
1500 17,900 to 38,00
2500 24,500 to 40,500
3500 24,800 to 40,800

these prices are less options that you decide to go with, such as diesel powerplant, 4x4, navigation, ect....

point is you can have a 07 base model 1 ton with a d-max for about 30k, but i chose not to drive the base model anything. If we were all real thrifty then we could drive old clunkers and save lots of money, but im not into being in the middle of no where on the side of the road with expensive equipment sitting on a trailer waiting for the right crack head to steel it.

 

[Builder]

Not necessarily, as workinallthetime pointed out a new half ton truck CAN cost more than a much more capable C4500 Kodiak. You don't save much money at all by buying the lighter duty but still full sized truck. Tool cost, the same, one much stronger.

Show me.

When I went to buy a Kodiak 4500/5500 and they were 40-50K. I can get a 1/2 ton GM pickup for 20K. Matter of fact, I bought a 1500 auto/air 4x2 for $16,500 at the end of '05.

Maybe it can cost more if you buy the crewcab sunroof, leather seats, and every possible option, but I'd really doubt it.

 

[Builder]

I agree. My '98 Ram with the 24-valve Cummins has delivered nearly 23-mpg over its last several tanks of fuel. That was commuting mileage, not highway...and my computing was pencil & paper method, not a trip computer.

Also, as my pickup gets older, the gap between a comparable '98 Ram gasser and my '98 Ram diesel widens. Diesels hold their value...the cost of entry is higher, but it comes back.

I wish that I could get a V6 diesel in a 1/2-ton that only produced 200-hp. and 350 ft./lbs. of torque. I want the fuel mileage. It looks like the hot-rodders will win out, however.

Edmunds put out an article a while back with statisics showing that a diesel pickup with 100,000 miles will fetch $5,000 more than the same gas pickup with 100,000 miles in a private sale, slighty less as a dealer trade.

People criticize us for buying diesel pickups, but when you realize you can get almost all your upfront costs back after 100K, they might finally shut-up and listen.

 

[Builder]

The operating cost of any full size pickup, diesel or gas, is greater than a car. If you use your truck mostly for things that a car can't do, that's fine. If, like most folks I see on the road, you use your truck mostly for things a car can do easily you are wasting money.

That's why I recommend using a car for car jobs and a truck for truck jobs. Just like you would use a utility tractor for plowing large fields and a push mower for mowing small lawns. Actually most people (though probably not many on this forum) would be better off having a car and renting a truck for the few times they actually need it.

Not sure if I agree. If you had a one vehicle family of 5-6 people, with today's full size crewcab pickups, I think there's a lot of scenarios where if the father is say a contractor, landscaper, etc. and needs it for work and the mother stays home or commutes, it would be their best choice. Dad can use it for tools & work, then they can use it after work for a family vehicle.