block heater

[brokenot]

I can't count the number of tractor trailers that I had to do road service on because they were froze up and they were driving down the highway when it happened. Was running fine when they left the truck stop at Keysers Ridge, Md., but it froze up while moving.......you have yet to explain it.

But let me assure you, only 'wind chill' is going to cause that.

We have probably ALL changed out fuel filters on equipment or trucks under the conditions you just described, but here's the rub:

If you got called out on the highway because a truck was stalled and you arrived to find it jelled up and then you swapped out the filters, how far down the road is that truck going to get before it jells up again?

You haven't magically raised the ambient temperature, nor have you lessened any wind effect due to road speed by swapping out a filter.

In other words, in any situation where you have ever "fixed" a truck out on the road by swapping out some filters, what has your filter swapping accomplished as far as doing anything to deal with the actual ambient temperature and the "wind effect" of the vehicle reaching road speed?

If it really was "wind chill", your newly installed filters would also jell up soon after hitting the road again. Not only that, but each and every other truck on the road would be pulled over experiencing the same issues. They'd be fine idling or at low road speeds, and then they'd all quit once they got up to road speed....if it were the "wind chill" that was causing it.

The trucks you described jelled up once out on the road because the engines take more fuel running down the highway than they do sitting at the truck stop.

It's really pretty simple experiment to find out at what temperature diesel fuel jells. You can put some fuel in a small container and expose it to lower and lower temps until you observe the phenomenon taking place. Then you can expose that same fuel sample to "wind" by setting it on the hood of your vehicle and driving down the road. It will not jell at a higher temperature than it did before, and the "wind" will not make the actual temperature lower than it actually is. It's an even simpler experiment to attach, (or to look at a factory-installed), thermometer in your vehicle. If you glance at it as you're backing out of your driveway and it says the temperature outside is "X", then does that reading change once you hit 60 mph? It doesn't. On modern vehicles with computers and ECMs, why don't the manufacturers tie the vehicle speed sensor output in with the thermometer output and display the "wind chill" reading on the handy dashboard display? Why don't the trucks you're describing have a warning lamp that says to decrease the road speed because it's approaching the dreaded "wind chill" plateau that's going to make the fuel jell? It would be easy to do so, but they don't because it's irrelevant information.

"Imaginary temperatures" arrived at by using "wind chill" charts and factors don't freeze water, they don't jell fuel, etc.

Actual temperatures do result in those things occurring.

 

[Don87]

We have probably ALL changed out fuel filters on equipment or trucks under the conditions you just described, but here's the rub:

If you got called out on the highway because a truck was stalled and you arrived to find it jelled up and then you swapped out the filters, how far down the road is that truck going to get before it jells up again?

You haven't magically raised the ambient temperature, nor have you lessened any wind effect due to road speed by swapping out a filter.

In other words, in any situation where you have ever "fixed" a truck out on the road by swapping out some filters, what has your filter swapping accomplished as far as doing anything to deal with the actual ambient temperature and the "wind effect" of the vehicle reaching road speed?If it really was "wind chill", your newly installed filters would also jell up soon after hitting the road again. Not only that, but each and every other truck on the road would be pulled over experiencing the same issues. They'd be fine idling or at low road speeds, and then they'd all quit once they got up to road speed....if it were the "wind chill" that was causing it.

The trucks you described jelled up once out on the road because the engines take more fuel running down the highway than they do sitting at the truck stop.

It's really pretty simple experiment to find out at what temperature diesel fuel jells. You can put some fuel in a small container and expose it to lower and lower temps until you observe the phenomenon taking place. Then you can expose that same fuel sample to "wind" by setting it on the hood of your vehicle and driving down the road. It will not jell at a higher temperature than it did before, and the "wind" will not make the actual temperature lower than it actually is. It's an even simpler experiment to attach, (or to look at a factory-installed), thermometer in your vehicle. If you glance at it as you're backing out of your driveway and it says the temperature outside is "X", then does that reading change once you hit 60 mph? It doesn't. On modern vehicles with computers and ECMs, why don't the manufacturers tie the vehicle speed sensor output in with the thermometer output and display the "wind chill" reading on the handy dashboard display? Why don't the trucks you're describing have a warning lamp that says to decrease the road speed because it's approaching the dreaded "wind chill" plateau that's going to make the fuel jell? It would be easy to do so, but they don't because it's irrelevant information.

"Imaginary temperatures" arrived at by using "wind chill" charts and factors don't freeze water, they don't jell fuel, etc.

Actual temperatures do result in those things occurring.

Either you didn't understand what I posted, or I posted in such a way that it couldn't be understood.

And all trucks aren't the same, some have fuel filters on the frame rail that are exposed to the wind.

It's clear that some on here are never going to understand wind chill, unless this explanation gets your attention:


Ever listen to a weather report about icing conditions? They always tell you that bridges and overpasses will freeze first.......the phenomenon causing this is the wind. Bridges and overpasses cause wind tunnels to form. The air will move faster, causing a lower wind chill that can freeze the road surfaces.

Take 2 bridges, crossing a small stream, at certain temperatures, with wind......the bridge going over the ice covered stream will be icy, but if the water is not frozen, the bridge won't be icy.
Wind chill in these examples I have given, are in fact affecting inanimate objects.

Ya don't hafta take my word for it, just pay closer attention when you drive down the highway.:thumbsup:

 

[shaley]

Can you repeat the question?
Is the question: Will the wind make my tractor harder to start when using a block heater?
Isn't this just a heat transfer problem? There are only 3 ways to xfer heat. Convection, conduction and radiation. I'd say convection is the dominate term when a tractor sits outside with a block heater.
Wind chill is just a term used for the perception of cold on the human body.
The term "increased heat loss" is used for inanimate objects. Air blowing against any surface will increase the heat loss from that surface. What that means for your specific tractor is a specific list of variables.

 

[jake98]

You guys are arguing about two different things, cooling and wind chill. A tractor going down the road in the wind has more cooling, and when it's near the gelling temperature it needs all the heat it can get. one parked over night might be a couple degrees warmer because it didn't get cooled completely, if it's parked out of the wind.

 

[Reverend Blair]

Can you repeat the question?
Is the question: Will the wind make my tractor harder to start when using a block heater?
Isn't this just a heat transfer problem? There are only 3 ways to xfer heat. Convection, conduction and radiation. I'd say convection is the dominate term when a tractor sits outside with a block heater.
Wind chill is just a term used for the perception of cold on the human body.
The term "increased heat loss" is used for inanimate objects. Air blowing against any surface will increase the heat loss from that surface. What that means for your specific tractor is a specific list of variables.

Exactly. That's why we cover the fronts of our trucks up here. It reduces the amount of wind under the hood and therefore minimizes heat loss.

 

[jake98]

'wind-chill' was invented by the weathermen to get you to stay inside and watch more TV.

 

[Don87]

'wind-chill' was invented by the weathermen to get you to stay inside and watch more TV.

LMAO:laughing::laughing::laughing:

 

[Don87]

You guys are arguing about two different things, cooling and wind chill. A tractor going down the road in the wind has more cooling, and when it's near the gelling temperature it needs all the heat it can get. one parked over night might be a couple degrees warmer because it didn't get cooled completely, if it's parked out of the wind.

It was stated in an earlier post that inanimate objects are not affected by wind chills.


They are. Simple as that.

EDIT: Back to the bridge analogy.........I have experienced frozen bridges when the ambient temperature is 40 degrees.

 

[brokenot]

Ever listen to a weather report about icing conditions? They always tell you that bridges and overpasses will freeze first.......the phenomenon causing this is the wind. Bridges and overpasses cause wind tunnels to form. The air will move faster, causing a lower wind chill that can freeze the road surfaces.

Are you even being serious now?

Bridges and overpasses freeze moisture on their surfaces faster because the road surface is essentially detached from the ground. Ambient temperatures can then affect the elevated road surface to a greater degree than the rest of the road because the elevated road surface is exposed top and bottom to the ambient temperature. You should follow your own advice and pay attention to the road conditions and you'll see that elevated road surfaces will freeze moisture on their surfaces faster even in the absence of any wind.

But still......

-any moisture that is on the road and therefore "available" to be frozen, will NOT freeze until it reaches the temperature it freezes AT. And "wind chill" is not an actual temperature. It never has been, and never will be. If it were, then on a 40F day, (for example), with the wind blowing at 20 mph, the moisture on the road would be freezing, because the "wind chill" temperature is 20F.

And all trucks aren't the same, some have fuel filters on the frame rail that are exposed to the wind

So....I'll ask you again. Let's say you got called out on the road to fix one of the jelled trucks with the exposed fuel filters on the frame rails. How did you "fix" them? Did you re-locate all of the components to get them out of the wind? Did you do anything to change the ambient conditions?

If you screwed on some new filters, you did nothing to affect the wind, or the ambient temperature. If you added some "911" to the fuel tank, then you changed the ambient temperature the fuel jells at. If that was your fix, then my next suggestion for experimentation would be to mix up some of the additive you used. Once you've got your test sample of fuel blended at a ratio that's equivalent to what it would be in a truck tank, then expose it to lower and lower temps until it jells up. Record that temperature, and repeat the experiment again with the sample set on your vehicle hood while going down the road. See if it jells at a different temp.

It won't, because just like in the moisture freezing example, the jelling takes place at an actual temperature.

And 'wind chill" ain't an actual temperature.

EDIT: just saw this:

EDIT: Back to the bridge analogy.........I have experienced frozen bridges when the ambient temperature is 40 degrees.

Then the freezing you're seeing on the bridge occurred before the ambient temperature reached 40 degrees, and has not yet dissipated.

What temperature does water freeze at? There's a spec for it that doesn't include an asterisk or footnotes changing the spec depending on whether or not there's a breeze.

 

[Don87]

Wow........what can I say, you apparently don't understand

So much wrong information in your last post........it isn't even funny.

 

[Mace Canute]

Wow........what can I say, you apparently don't understand

So much wrong information in your last post........it isn't even funny.

Funny...I was just thinking the same thing about yours.

Tell you what. Do an empirical experiment yourself. Get two identical thermometers and stick one in a metal box (no insulating factor, or at least minuscule) so it is out of the wind and put the other one out in the full force of the wind. They have to be close to each other of course and you have to prevent any external source of heat, like sunshine, from reaching both of them...that would skew the results. A dark windy night would be ideal. After they have been out in the wind for a good while (to allow the readings on each to stabilize) go check the readings and see what they are. I already know they will be equal but you do it so you can see with your own eyes that they are.

I have experienced frozen bridges when the ambient temperature is 40 degrees.

That would mean the bridge itself was below the freezing point and moisture in the warmer air condensed out onto the colder bridge material and froze. Nothing to do with "wind chill".

 

[TGReaper]

Play nice children:

Any air movement that disturbs the boundary layer will lessen the effectiveness of a heat source.(block heater)

By the same token shelter from air movement will allow a given inanimate unit to retain heat longer.

Dan

 

[Willl]

Could the argument be more about terminology then process ?

 

[irvingj]

"Could the argument be more about terminology then process ?"

Gentlemen, I believe we may have hit the proverbial nail on the head here.....

Concerning "wind chill" freezing bridges: Yes, it could happen, I suppose, if conditions were just so, that a venturi effect --or some other means of accelerating air-- could induce a pressure drop (Bernoulli) and Charlie Boyle would cause a drop in temperature.... but I'd think that would be more likely at 33 degrees rather than 40. I see it happen on my roof all the time, as cooler evening air flows downslope, hits my roof, and spills down the lee side. I'll get light frost on that side of the roof but nowhere else... but that's at 33 or so, never as warm as 40. (For what it's worth....)

 

[boatyard]

Wow! I think we have a horse that we MAY be able to lead to the water, but it is not going to drink the water.
Temperature will not change in the wind. It may feel different to you. Things may cool down faster/ fully. But the temperature in the wind will never be lower then a sheltered spot out of the wind. Period. And many of you have stated this basic premise so well so many times now. Someone is not listening.:confused2:

 

[PILOON]

Ice and bridges:

A bridge will be the same temp as the ambient air but the road up to and after the bridge will be just a bit warmer due to the fact that the soil under the road bed is always warmer and therefore the roadbed will be just warmer enough not to freeze.

Might be but 1/2 or maybe 2 deg or so difference but water (snow) will only freeze at 32 deg. and not at 34 or 35.

Now that generally occurs in areas that enjoy 'borderline cold' vs up north where it is very cold as our frost can go as deep as 4 ft.
Also the warnings are because the folks in those areas are rather unaware of the phenomena. Up north we are more aware of those things.

Once in deep south I watched folks skidding, spinning all over the place because of a freak 2 inch snow fall.
Being a Canadian I drove all over the place without any incident, but very cautiously.

 

[Gio]

ok, how about this. If you bake a cake in a 350 degree conventional oven it will cook slower then a cake baked in a 350 degree convection oven. :confused2: Is this a reverse wind chill effect?

sorry...just being a wise guy trying to further drive this thread from a simple block heater discussion

 

[brokenot]

sorry...just being a wise guy trying to further drive this thread from a simple block heater discussion

Sorry, I wasn't trying to threadjack this topic away from the block heater discussion.

At work though, we get calls all the time to go out to jobsites and get rental machines up and running. The customers come up with all manner of excuses and explanations as to their role in the no-start condition the particular piece of equipment is currently experiencing.

If it got down to zero, (or below), overnight.....the machine doesn't start unless it was plugged in. A customer that makes the call to have me come out and get it going, will come up with any explanation they can in order to divert the responsibility away from them....because otherwise they have to pay for the service call.

I've probably heard it a hundred times at least over the last 20 years. When they call and say it doesn't start, it's like they assume we've never started it at whatever the current temperature is. So if it's zero degrees, we'll tell them that if it indeed was plugged in for even a couple of hours, it will start.

That's when they whip out the "wind chill" explanation, and it goes a little somethin' like this:

"Yeah, it probably would start if it were just 0 degrees outside, but with the "wind chill" it's 25 below!"

(That's kind of amusing as well, because it's like they think we've never started the machine when it's been windy overnight either.:confused2

Every once in a while, we'll find that a block heater has indeed quit working. But the vast majority of the time, the operator really forgot to plug the machine in, OR....the jobsite foreman killed all of the site power at the end of the day after everyone else left. The no-start is their responsibility.

It never has been, and never will be "wind chill".

There's my tie-in to the block heater topic.

 

[Egon]

It never has been, and never will be "wind chill".

Of course it could be wind chill. You must consider the effect it can have on the fellow having to go out and brave the elements for an extra trip to plug in a piece of equipment !:thumbsup:

 

[Kitz]

ok, how about this. If you bake a cake in a 350 degree conventional oven it will cook slower then a cake baked in a 350 degree convection oven. :confused2: Is this a reverse wind chill effect?

sorry...just being a wise guy trying to further drive this thread from a simple block heater discussion

:thumbsup:my heater question was answered thanks guys but this is the best one:laughing: