Bringing the draft back ???

Lazy · Apr 20, 2004

Hi
I a little confused which is normal for me. I thought National Guard was a force to protect the home land. are they going to call it the International Guard now? I don't think the National Guard should ever leave the USA. I thought all branches of services had a reserve force for those times they needed extra manpower.

Charlie.

Tractors4u · Apr 20, 2004

( I thought National Guard was a force to protect the home land. are they going to call it the International Guard now? )

It has never been that way. I don't know about WWI but in WWII there were National Guard units activated. The primary difference between the Guard and the reserve is the Guard is governed by the state and can be called to active duty by the Governor of it's state. It can also be called to active duty by the federal government. In my 15 years I have never been activated for federal service but I have been activated on the state level for hurricanes Opal and Danny. For some reason when you have bulldozers, backhoes, loaders, and dumptrucks, the Engineers always get the call.

Essayons!

OkeeDon · Apr 21, 2004

Brent, the Guard was different in the Vietnam era. Some units were activated and served with distinction, particularly the Iowa and Kansas units.

But, many units were seen as "safe". For example, if one had sufficient "pull", one could enroll in a Guard unit, be trained to fly an obsolete airplane, thus being totally useless in the war effort, and even take time off from Guard duties to run a political campaign.

Here's what Colin Powell had to say about the Guard in that era, in his memoirs:

"I am angry that so many of the sons of the powerful and well-placed... managed to wangle slots in Reserve and National Guard units...Of the many tragedies of Vietnam, this raw class discrimination strikes me as the most damaging to the ideal that all Americans are created equal and owe equal allegiance to their country."

My American Journey (1995) p. 148

BXMMCC · Apr 21, 2004

Bigun-
Please be careful about what you say about the United States Coast Guard during the Vietnam period. It's very obvious that you DO NOT KNOW you are talking about!
Do you know who manned the Black Hulls? Do an Internet search on Coast+Guard+Vietnam!

A proud USCG Korean "Conflict" veteran.

Boondox · Apr 21, 2004

Ah, the coasties! You guys saved our skins several times in the early 80s off the coast of Washington state when our rickety little Korean War vintage minesweeper went dead in the water...which it did with annoying regularity! We'd put out a call to the Coast Guard, who would run to Radio Shack, then deliver whichever antique vacuum tube we needed to continue operations.

To their credit, the coasties never laughed at our plight! /forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

Pete

Boondox · Apr 21, 2004

I agree with Don on this one. The Guard and Reserve servicemen and women I know today are head and shoulders above the reserves I knew while on active duty. Heck, my last ship was officially a naval reserve force ship, which meant we had 70% active duty with the remainder reservists who were supposed to show up one weekend a month. So we scheduled underway time for that weekend, only to have 90% of the reserve crew not show up. They would do a "makeup" the following weekend when the ship was comfortably in port near the PX. What that meant was the undermanned active crew had to bust butt to do all the things we really needed all hands for! It was brutal, exhausting work with many injuries caused by asking too few men to do far too much. /forums/images/graemlins/mad.gif

When I hear "Reserve" today, I have to force myself to mentally change gears and acknowledge to myself that it's a completely different story now. So you youngsters, please bear in mind that we need to shift gears. While we might leave out the part about "now" vs "then," disparaging remarks about reservists are most definitely then!

Pete

fivestring · Apr 21, 2004

"The reasons given for going before we invaded have all turned out to be incorrect and misleading, if not outright lies." 

Don, that question has already been answered.
There was a mock hearing (wasting taxpayer's money) called the 911 Commission. Have we heard anything since it is over?
I guess they didn't find what they wanted to find!
The previous administration (Clinton's) did not fund intelligence gathering units properly. This carried over into the Bush administration. This includes Kerry's "NO" to funding vote.
As a result, intelligence was not what it COULD have been. As a result, the President acted on the intelligence at hand (obviously flawed) with Congressional approval.
That includes Kerry's "YES" vote for the action against Iraq.

OkeeDon · Apr 21, 2004

that question has already been answered.
There was a mock hearing (wasting taxpayer's money) called the 911 Commission. Have we heard anything since it is over?
I guess they didn't find what they wanted to find!


I'm somewhat hesitant to reply to this because I don't want it to seem like I'm picking on you. The bi-partisan 911 Commission (5 Republicans, 5 Democrats) has not finished it's work. More hearings are scheduled for May and June. The deadline for completing their report is July 26, 2004, but there is no guarantee the report will be released on that date.

Created by an act of the Republican controlled Congress with the bill signed by Republican George Bush, I'm somewhat surprised to hear you call it a "mock" commission, especially if it turns out you were right and it finds nothing to harm the administration. Think about it. If it finds nothing damaging, and it is a mock commission, then its findings are likely wrong, and there might be something damaging to the administration that a "real" commission could find, but a "mock" commission could not.

Tractors4u · Apr 21, 2004

I read a news report about Bill Clintons comments to the 9-11 commision. All it said was that he gave them advice on things to look at and how to compile the report. It really made it look like he was there as a consultant and not as a witness to testify.

fivestring · Apr 21, 2004

My main take on that is what another waste of my tax dollars.

A decision was made based on information a person had on hand AT THAT TIME.

Now, it appears that the information could have been better.

That happens everyday in every manager's office. Decisions are made based on the information they have IN HAND AT THAT TIME.
So, who's fault is it?
The one who made the decision based on the info AT HAND AT THAT TIME or the one's that provided the information or the ones that hindered the correct amount of information that could have been gathered?

Monday morning quarterbacks always have better information than the person that makes the original decision.

Could anyone here have made a better decision based on the information AT HAND AT THAT TIME?

I am not 100% behind any President in all of his decisions.
But, I can not place blame on him for the inadequate information. One needs to go back to the early to mid 1990's to find the start of the problem.

5030 · Apr 21, 2004

Mike:

Boy am I glad I read the thread. From the posted line, I thought this was about Draft Horses. At that point, my wife would have taken over the computer. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

I think I'll remian politically correct and not voice my opinion. No point in making the water even more muddy. /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Chuck52 · Apr 21, 2004

Memories. I kept my educational deferment until it went away, and then I drew a low number in the lottery. I think it was less than 50. Is there a way to look up that number after all these years? I was sure I was going, because I had already passed the physical, but I was never called. My older brother, having flunked out of every college my mother could get him into, had joined the Navy right ahead of the draft. He was supposed to get electronics training, according to his recruiter, but he shot in the top 10% of his bootcamp group and ended up as forward gunner on a river patrol boat. He wrote home that he wasn't having much fun and I should not go out of my way to join him there. Did local draft boards have quotas? I remember hearing that they did, and that they could count volunteers as part of that. Or maybe they tried to spread the pain and avoided drafting more than one from a family. I don't know. I would have gone had I been drafted. It wouldn't have occured to me not to, though I didn't blame anyone who ran to Canada.

I still haven't decided how I feel about a draft, and since I have two sons it would be personal to me. However, my older boy finished four years in the Navy in the fall of 2002, so unless things get much worse he's probably out of it. My younger boy might not pass the physical, unless they're looking for guys who can slide through the eye of a needle. He got skinny genes from somewhere. On the other hand, if the idea is to serve the country, he does that by volunteering in various ways. He's helping with the Special Olympics, this past weekend and next (I think). He spends most Sundays reading to Spanish speaking kids at a church, though he is totally non-religious. He's just about fluent in Spanish and that was the connection, somehow. He belongs to an environmental club at college and helps with trail and stream clean-ups with them. They also helped build a trail at a local park. So....maybe we don't need a draft.

Chuck

AndyM · Apr 21, 2004

I think I'll remian politically correct and not voice my opinion. 

Who are you, and what have you done with Daryl??? /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Seriously though, I've stayed out of this until now, but now I can't keep my mouth shut any longer, because I just don't understand...

(I'm going to drift almost to the political line that we can't cross, but not quite /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif. I'm trying hard to keep this unpolitical-- Mike, I'm trying to keep it politically neutral, but you can delete it if you need to)

Why Iraq?

They had a terrible dictatorship, and the people of that country faced oppressive conditions because of their leader. There are any number of countries throughout the world that also have the same problem. Why Iraq? There are any number of countries in Africa, or North Korea, or elsewhere in the Middle East, where a brutal government oppresses its people, yet the people of these nations have done nothing wrong to deserve this treatment. If we feel the need to rescue one nation's people and rebuild their schools and hospitals, why haven't we finished the rest of these dictatorships off and helped to build democracies in their nations?

Why only Iraq?

I cringe every time I hear about the need to build new schools in Iraq, and the need to give these children the education they deserve. What about the education the American children deserve? Many members of my family (including my wife, who hasn't found a permanent job five years after graduating), and many of my friends, are school teachers. The headlines each day are so discouraging. The school districts are each millions of dollars in debt. They blame the state, the state blames the federal government, but no one really tries to fix the problems.
I don't understand where the priorities are. /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif

Cleveland schools announced the layoff of 618 teachers today. /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif Akron already announced around 170 layoffs. Closer to me, Warren city schools are laying off 50 teachers. Smaller districts in this area have eliminated art and music classes and even the school cafeteria has closed in some districts to save money! (bring your brown bag only)

I've seen cases where two grades have been combined into the same classroom and bussing eliminated in rural districts. Is this 1940 again??? (You know, "I walked five miles to school, uphill both ways, in three feet of snow, carrying my brother and sister...")

Come on people, this is 2004! Many of the people here who personally know me know what my political leanings are (leaning toward the right hand side of the page), but enough is enough. Congress and the president need to stop their partisan squabbling about how to rebuild someone else's government and focus a little bit on the future of this country. If the children aren't getting the proper education, and the problems here aren't focused on, then we are the ones who will eventually end up as the third world country... /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif

Man, I'm long winded today! /forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

Once again, I apologize for all of that, but I just needed to get it off my chest, and like I said in a previous post, I would rather say it to you guys here then somewhere else! /forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif

slowrev · Apr 21, 2004

What Andy said /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Boondox · Apr 21, 2004

( I think I'll remian politically correct and not voice my opinion. No point in making the water even more muddy. )

How appropriate that this whole thread was started by a new member named "Muddy!" /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Pete

Bob_Skurka · Apr 21, 2004

What I know is that I just came back from lunch where I had my last meal with a long term friend who will be reporting for duty on Monday and is on her way to Iraq. She is going willingly, despite the fact that she is leaving her loved ones behind. She is leaving her family, her friends and her co-workers. And she is doing it because she believes that America is the land of opportunity, the great melting pot, and the home of the free where not only do we have the right to succeed, but also to the right to fail. We are the most charitable nation on earth, and she is part of that and is proving it by giving up 12 to 18 months of her life, and possibly a lot more. We have a lot of things to fix here in this country, but as someone who has traveled to many parts of the world, the problems with our schools or our health system are NOTHING compared to other nations. We are the greatest nation on the earth because we are FREE to succeed, to speak, to vote, and yes even to FAIL. And when your life is touched by someone who is giving up theirs to go fight for the IDEAL, then maybe you will understand why I am greatful to live here and why, if my child was drafted today, I would not try to get her out of the service.

riptides · Apr 21, 2004

( I also believe that those people who still support our invasion of Iraq is because they still believe the stories the administration spun before the invasion, that Iraq was somehow connected to 9/11, )

WHAT? Where did that come from? Iraq connected to 9/11, what administration official said that? Where did you get that from?

-Mike Z.

Bob_Skurka · Apr 21, 2004

I thought the invasion was to a) eliminate WMD, b) eliminate a dictator. Side benefits might include a new democracy, stability in the region and oil.

There was no clear connection to 9/11 from what I recall.