Bringing the draft back ???

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   / Bringing the draft back ??? #121  
<font color="blue"> Most importantly, is our government currently doing enough domestically to help the future of this country? Schools, jobs, etc. </font>

<font color="red"> Here we disagree. The items you mention, while important, are not more important than the security of the country. If we do not have security, these other things do not matter. </font>

It is important to build a strong future for this country, or there will be no need to even bother protecting it.
 
   / Bringing the draft back ??? #122  
<font color="blue"> It is important to build a strong future for this country, or there will be no need to even bother protecting it. </font>
We will have to agree to disagree. I look at this no differently than my own household budget, i.e., 'needs' come before 'wants'. Security is a 'need', almost everything else is a 'want'.
 
   / Bringing the draft back ??? #123  
Andy, I didn't mention schools because it is not the governmrnt's job to educate children.
When the government made itself involved in education, everything went to pot:
It costs 5-15k a year to educate one student (7k here in Charlotte). Each year, the school system begs for millions more. Why does it cost so much? Homeschooling costs 1/5 of that amount. (No, I was not home-schooled)
Violence in gummit schools.
Weapons in schools.
Lack of discipline in schools.
The knowledge of American students in several areas (math, foreign languages, geography, to name a few) is lacking compared to other countries.
Sports seems to be the key class in gummit schools. Funding for music and arts are being cut at alarming rates nationwide.
There are many more problems with gummit involvement in schools. A google search of "public schools" or "dumbing down of America" should open a lot of eyes. /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif

Behind the welfare program, gummit schools has been the next largest waste of $$$$ the government has ever been involved in. /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif
 
   / Bringing the draft back ??? #124  
Andy, I'll take a stab at a couple of your questions. And, I'm going to confuse my distinguished friends who think I'm on the "other side" by defending the current administration.

<font color="blue"> Why only Iraq?...Are we going to take care of the nuclear capabilities and WMD in other countries that are known threats, or are we just going to ignore those ones?
</font>

The administration's answer to that is that each case is different, and each case is handled differently. And, in my opinion, they're right. Start with Afghanistan. We had real evidence that ***** Bin Laden and Al Qaeda were using that country, with the active help and assistance of the Taliban, as their headquarters and training grounds. We had already sent cruise missiles to hit a training camp, but missed Bin Laden. After 9/11, it was time to do the job right. We formed a true coalition with support from most nations, hit the country hard, ousted the Taliban and picked a good man to be the interim head of the country. They're still suffering somewhat because it takes time to rebuild a country, they haven't settled the warlord problems, and US involvement has slowed down in the last year, but they are certainly better off, and the world is certainly safer as more and more Al Qaeda members are caught or killed.

So, it's not just Iraq, we invaded Afghanistan as well. There were few protests, and wide allied support, because that action was widely seen as justified. For what it's worth, I supported it.

As most everyone knows, President Bush labeled Iran, Iraq and North Korea as the "axis of evil." There's a really funny satire out there that says that Lybia, Syria and the Sudan also wanted to be in the axis of evil, but were told that an axis can have only three members (tradition started in WWII with Germany, Italy and Japan). So, they formed the "axis of just as evil." (That's satire)

But, Iran and the Sudan have been more or less cooperating in the war on terrorism since 9/11. They have participated in identifying terrorists and searching for financial links. Lybia has agreed to identify all of its WMD and open for inspection, in return for dropping sanctions. While the current administration will take credit for this as a result of the Iraq invasion, I found news reports as early as 1999, shortly after they handed over the Lockerbie terrorists, that said the Lybia was warming to the West and in negotiations with the administration at that time. The West has responded so favorably to this announcement by Lybia, that Iran is reported to be considering the same type of move. The Sudanese, in addition to cooperating in the war on terrorism, have likely cut back or considered eliminating any WMD or terrorism projects after booting Bin Laden out of the country. The administration is continuing diplomatic discussions with these nations, as well as Syria and Yemen. There were many reports that Syria was "next" after Iraq, but after all our problems and expense in Iraq, my opinion is that I doubt it will ever happen.

North Korea is a special case, and the administration, in my opinion, is correctly handling it through discussions, negotiation and diplomacy. We have actually wisely backed off somewhat, letting China host the talks. Japan, South Korea and other allies in that area support this. China probably has more influence on North Korea than anyone, and they want to be seen as cooperating with us. Besides, they're probably tired of propping up North Korea. (That's me joking)

So, there are other ways in which to handle these situations other than invasion, some already somewhat successful and many others still ongoing, and I support the administration's efforts. That still leaves the question of "Why Iraq?", and I have my ideas about that, but that's a different subject.

None of the statements above are my opinion, except where I identified it as such. Every one was researched with Google searches, discarding those sites that are obviously partisan (in either direction), and using only direct quotes or news stories that appeared factual from a variety of respected sources. I'll be happy to furnish anyone with a list of my Google search phrases in a PM.
 
   / Bringing the draft back ??? #125  
<font color="blue"> For the amount of money we send to Israel, we could retire the national debt.
</font>

The total amount of money we sent to Israel from 1949 to 1997 was a little less than $85 Billion. Interest we paid on that amount came to just under $50 Billion. So, the total cost to us was a little under $135 Billion. Considering that aid has continued for almost 7 more years at around $7 Billion per year, we are probably up to $185 Billion, maybe as much as $225 Billion with interest. That's over 55 years and many different administrations. Every administration has defended it as what is required to maintain the only more-or-less true free democracy in the Middle East.

The national debt is just over $7 Trillion as of today.

We have already spent almost as much as the Israeli's total received over 55 years in one year in Iraq (about $115 Billion to about $135 Billion), not counting interest in either case, and Iraq costs will likely rise to at least $200 - $300 Billion in the next couple of years.
 
   / Bringing the draft back ??? #126  
We're drifting WAY off the original topic, aren't we? /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
It's been a great discussion, though...

<font color="blue"> Andy, I didn't mention schools because it is not the governmrnt's job to educate children.
When the government made itself involved in education, everything went to pot: </font>

There are WAY too many levels of administration involved in education. Each city school district, each county, each region of the state. Then there's the state board of education and department of education, and the U.S. Department of Education.

While I'm on the subject of that, what exactly does the U.S. Department of Education do that the lower levels of bureaucrats don't already do? There's no duplication of jobs in the levels of administration??? They have 4800 employees and a $54.4 BILLION budget! The U.S. Department of Education wasn't created until 1980. My goodness, how did we ever survive before that time???

<font color="blue"> Sports seems to be the key class in gummit schools. Funding for music and arts are being cut at alarming rates nationwide. </font>

My wife was a loyal empoyee of a local school district for three years. We lived in the community and we were involved with the programs in the school and community, even though we have no children. Heck, before she graduated, she even did her student teaching there. After stringing her along every time there was a full-time opening, they hired people from outside the district who could also double as coaches. Doesn't loyalty to your employer and community matter at all? /forums/images/graemlins/mad.gif

Speaking of home schooling, Gary, I'll send you an email later telling you about what my wife is doing for a living right now. She's still involved in education, but works in a cubicle in an office building downtown. She loves children, and didn't go into teaching for the money. She wanted to be someone who could shape the lives of children. It seems the priorities in education are all wrong, and it breaks her beautiful heart not to be doing what she has wanted to do since being a small child. /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif

I know it's not about the money, but we really can't afford to have her go back to teaching at a Christian school for $15,000 per year with no benefits. That's the going rate at all the ones in this area. You spend six years in college, build up tens of thousands of dollars in student loans, and you could make more working at Wally World. That's messed up!
 
   / Bringing the draft back ??? #127  
<font color="red">"has defended it as what is required to maintain the only more-or-less true free democracy in the Middle East." </font>

Are they saying that without our money sent to them they would not be a democracy? /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif

What do we truly get in return for our investment in that country? /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif
Oil? Commodities? Cars? Durable goods? Sugar? Steel?
 
   / Bringing the draft back ??? #128  
<font color="blue">Are they saying that without our money sent to them they would not be a democracy? </font>

No. They're saying that without the aid they wouild not exist. Much of the aid is military, and has been used to win several wars attempting to take them over.

What do we get for our money? A balance to the more totalitarian states in the region, and an example of how democracy works. The same things our administration is currently saying in order to justify the war in Iraq. Not bad, except that we're spending over $4 Billion per month in one, and less than $7 Billion per year in the other. We won't be getting any special deals on oil from Iraq -- the French, Germans and Russians have all the oil contracts with Iraq, and the reasson why we had to have an $87 Billion supplement, instead of having the oil money pay for the reconstruction as Paul Wolfowitz stated before the war, is because we capitulated to the French, Germans and Russians (my opinion, but backed up by the fact that we are going to use the oil money to pay off Iraq's debts to the F, G & R).
 
   / Bringing the draft back ??? #129  
Don,
</font><font color="blue" class="small">( And, I'm going to confuse my distinguished friends who think I'm on the "other side" by defending the current administration. )</font>
Well, AHHHHHHH.... yes. Confused. How can you explain administrative policy so clearly and yet believe in media reports linking Iraqi to 9/11.

What you do, is more important than what other people say.
IMHO of course.

/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif
-Mike Z.
 
   / Bringing the draft back ??? #130  
</font><font color="blue" class="small">( <font color="brown"> ( After reading this thread in light of the way the people act now I wonder,was it worth it? ) </font>)</font>

<font color="violet"> the way people act now </font>

Maybe I read more into it than I should have. I saw it as a vet questioning his service to our country. I may be mistaken.
I feel no veteran needs to defend their service to our country.

Ever.

-Mike Z.
 
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