Cheap FEL cylinders keep bending

[LittleBill21]

here is the original post. He was not moving and simply tried to raise the tractor, and it bent. Sorry cylinders are either crap, or the relief is set wrong. He was not back dragging or bouncing it.

Ever seen a tractor cylinder bend this easy > General Discussion > AR15.COM

Last year there was an unfortunate incident where my old Massey was left out of gear and rolled about 30' down a slight incline and split in half at the transmission. 5 Months later it was finally re

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[LD1]

Agree with those that say the cylinders should not be bending like that.

Linkage or no linkage on the loader should make no difference.

 

[JWR]

THAT bucket shouldn't even be on that tractor... No wonder they bent...

SR

I disagree. It is NOT the bucket , it is the way the SSQA is attached/configured. Post #1 is certain to fail as shown regardless of the implement. Post # 4 cannot fail in this mode. He nails the problem in post # 15. My guess is the SSQAs are dealer installed options with Massey and the dealer having screwed it up is at fault.

 

[JWR]

Oh so many things jumps out at me after seeing all the images…

Notice the holes… why are they unused?

View attachment 721429

When it should have these brackets in place like these…

View attachment 721430

Somebody screwed up at the dealership.

AMEN !!! Exactly. The problem is NOT the bucket nor does it matter what sort of bucket is attached ! The problem is the configuration of the SSQA adapter apparently installed without all the parts !!!! Complete and total screwup by the dealer OR by MF putting them out without the pivot levers.. or potentially even encouraging dealers to install them that way (!?) I'm sure once the matter is sorted out (with the AGCO regional rep being the referee -- and you need him into it NOW) the dealer has no choice but to apologize and make it right. Let him and the AGCO regional rep sort out which of them pays what because there may well be inadequate instructions and/or missing parts coming from AGCO to the dealer for the SSQA installation. Under no circumstance do you the buyer pay a dime.

that appears factory...

https://www.tractorhouse.com/listings/farm-equipment/for-sale/200153011/2021-massey-ferguson-2860e

Look at post #16 and the tractor for sale in Tractor House !! That one is misconfigured too ! So there are many of these out in the field about to bend cylinders and cost many people much grief. Someone needs to get hold of AGCO at a high level.

AND good holy crap, take a look at the YouTube from Vahrenberg at

which compares the older DL95 and the newer Xfl 1805. In their video the newer one has the DOOMED SSQA connection, omitting the pivot lever that we all saw in post #15. This disease is very widespread.

AND same disease showing in another Vahrenberg YouTube with the specific loader also in DOOMED configuration at

AND ... Sub-Compact & Compact Loaders notice here [in a factory webpage, not a dealer or a sale] that the pivot lever is in place. Also note that without the pivot lever the bucket cylinders at full dump are WAY further out and that is when they get bent.



I can't tell whose fault it is - dealer vs AGCO -- but right now no one in their right mind will operate that loader without the pivot lever.

 

[Midniteoyl]

I'm trying to figure out why this isn't a Kubota tractor? I mean, he's "rich enough to by the best"..

 

[JWR]

And by the way, "cheap cylinders" has nothing to do with the problem.

 

[4570Man]

Agree with those that say the cylinders should not be bending like that.

Linkage or no linkage on the loader should make no difference.

At first I thought it was abuse which would have probably still happened if it lasted longer. But you’re right it’s missing parts. I’m wondering how they ever put it together though. If it was intended to work with the linkage the cylinder should be about 8” shorter than it is. I’m also wondering why they have such a short stroke cylinder in place with spacers at both ends. I’ve seen that on much larger tractors but never anything this small. In any case making a cylinder artificially longer seems like a poor design that’s going to weaken it. It also looks like the loader has a very poor dump angle in it’s current configuration. I wonder if the quick attach plate that’s painted a different color is factory or aftermarket.

 

[Cougsfan]

Looking at the overall design of this setup.... what a piece of junk! Some engineer better go back to basics and study the Euler effect, slenderness ratios and buckling of columns. Eliminating the pivot and extending the length of the ram probably along with no one lowering the relief pressure to compensate for the inherit weakness added to the design.... No small wonder it failed. If this is how it is supposed to be assembled, some engineer should be fired.

 

[JWR]

LD1 -- One Vahrenberg YouTube video says the SSQA is standard now, not an option. So it is OEM. I think it is a big factor that without the pivot levers the cylinder rods are extended out to the max, and thus they become long levers inserted onto a short hole, surely never intended to be that way. At full dump I suspect the cylinders are "over center" slightly (in vertical travel)... and that means any downward force by the loader frame while in that awkward spot translates into forcing the cylinder into "worse overcenter." I think that started the bends. Once the bends had been started with slight bends (which the OP probably never noticed) after that any significant compression force from whatever source would bend them worse. In his video I think it just got bad enough by then that he could see it. All because the pivot levers were not in place.

And the wild thing is that so many of them are out in the field set up that way.

 

[DMW]

Pivots are missing according to parts diagram.

 

[ptsg]

Pivots are missing according to parts diagram.

View attachment 721447

If those linkages parts were missing, the loader would be pretty much unusable due to the shorter length of the cylinders. For a setup without the linkages, the cylinders have to be extended to get some decent curl and dump angles, so that definitely came from factory like that.

Whoever makes the loaders for the Branson 15 series also did this thing of removing that linkage and just increased the length of the cylinders and guess what, there are reports of bent cylinders almost every day.

I don't really think it's a quality issue, rather an engineering mess up. For a cylinder to hold those forces, regardless if it's the best cylinder in the world, it would need to stupidly oversized for the loader in hand.

That linkage makes an huge difference on applying the forces in the right directions for the cylinders, plus it reduces the overall length of the cylinders which will only make them stronger.

As if that wasn't enough, people see a loader and a backhoe on a tractor and expect them to work like a skidsteer and excavator. That just won't happen, specially with oversized implements.

 

[Diggin It]

and traded it in for this new 2750e. Needless to say it has been nothing but a nightmare. First day I had it I bent both of the hydraulic cylinders pushing debris. I accepted my fate and spent the $1000 to get them replaced (been 6 months) and within 3 hours I bent the new ones

Not going to get in to the rest of it, just wanted to note that the machine owner bent two sets of rods.

 

[CH4Ohio]

Looks like the bucket hits a full stop point before the cylinder is fully extended. Nothing for the cylinder to do but bend after that. That should have been an obvious problem and indication to sort out the cause (missing parts and/or incorrect hookup).

If the cylinder ends are disconnected and then extended all the way, you wouldn't be able to connect this bucket. The cylinders would already be beyond the max length of travel. That's a recipe for absolute failure.

 

[LD1]

Whether the linkages are there or not shouldn't make a difference with regard to the cylinder bending.

The linkages removed should make the bucket curl back more, and dump less...that's all.

Hitting mechanical stops before cylinder fully extended shouldn't cause this....infact you WANT the stops to be hit just shy of full extend.

The parts diagram, even with the linkage shows a short cylinder with extensions on both rod and base.

Piss poor design....and honestly....I'd be questioning my purchase and looking to either a different model or different brand

 

[Torvy]

I'm no engineer, but if I bent my cylinders doing something, I would start by not doing that again. Seems more like he is trying to do more than it can handle.

 

[DK35vince]

I'm no engineer, but if I bent my cylinders doing something, I would start by not doing that again. Seems more like he is trying to do more than it can handle.

But if you watch the video, those cylinders are bowing FAR FAR to easy and something is wrong.

 

[LD1]

Ironic I cannot find ANYTHING on masseys site for the 2750/2760e.

But I did find this video on their website that can hopefully put to rest whether its missing parts or not.

MF 2800 E

The versatile MF 2800 E Series combines the practicality of a compact tractor with the functionality of a utility tractor.

www.masseyferguson.com

The video....paused at both 0:24 and 3:39 both show a FLx2815 loader and it does NOT have the linkages.

As I have said before, some loaders have them, some dont. But regardless, the cylinders should NEVER be capable of column buckling under their own hydraulic force.

The ONLY think that should cause column buckling is an outside force GREATER than the hydraulic force they are capable of.
And example of that is with the loader dumped all the way and attempting to back drag with the cutting edge. We have all seen that on here a time or two. But it should NEVER happen under the loaders own power.

I have to wonder though.....in the video the OP posted, if the cylinders werent already bent from said activity. The LONGER bucket would compound the forces if used while dumped and backdragging. Requiring less effort/traction to make the cylinders bend. It dont matter if its a stock bucket, or a 4' stump bucket, or hell a 10' long bucket....it should NEVER happen under its own hydraulic power. But it DOES matter if you are using tractive power, and the bigger (longer) the bucket the easier it happens.

So if these cylinders in that video were already compromised.....THEN and ONLY THEN can I see the tractor being able to do that with hydraulic power alone.

Is the tractor owner a member here? CoTHg is this your tractor or someone you know? Can you direct him here....on a tractor forum where he may get more help than on a AR15 forum?

The following are the screenshots of the video on massey's own website showing no linkages or missing parts

 

[LD1]

But if you watch the video, those cylinders are bowing FAR FAR to easy and something is wrong.

Unless they were already compromised by attempting to backdrag with that big bucket already.

See my post above

 

[ptsg]

Yes, you can clearly see the cylinders already bent on the video before he even moves the bucket.

 

[lpakiz]

My view is that a hydraulic cylinder simply pushes 2 pins apart or pulls those 2 pins together, nothing more. If the cylinder rod buckles, it’s a sign that the rod is longer than it’s diameter supports, and/or that the extend pressure is excessive.
My view is that the actual design of the loader or bucket components and their geometry has nothing to do with the rod buckling. It’s simply that the rod diameter is too small for its length, or the hydraulic force generated is excessive. (This pressure could also be back pressure on the tilt cylinder, but generated by down pressure on the main boom)
Think of a theoretical cylinder with a rod 24” long and 1/4” in diameter, extended. (Theoretical, remember?) The rod wouid be somewhat stable if only extended 1/8” but certainly the rod will buckle with very little extend pressure out there at 24”
Now imagine the rod being 24” long extended, but 2-3” in diameter. This rod will be hundreds or thousands of times more resistant to buckling.