clearing palmetto palm field - loader or dozer?

rlee6 · May 10, 2005

I need to clear 2-3 acres of palmetto palms, about 3 feet tall. No tall trees to fell, flat, sandy, typical of central Florida.

When I called a rental place, a loader (wheeled) with root rake was recommended. Now after waiting one month on their waiting list, a 3 or 4 cybic yard unit is available. I need to get it before they rent it to someone else.

But the store clerk is telling me a different story. Palmetto palms are tougher than looking and a dozer would be better.

Has anyone pulled palmetto palms? Will he kindly pass me his experience? Thanks.

kubotadan · May 10, 2005

I am from Fla. Monticello. If you can rent a JD 644 with a root rake it will be faster than a dozer. They are pretty tough to pull out of the ground.

Soundguy · May 10, 2005

I agree.. nasty buggers... but the sandy soil is to your advantage.. and yes.. a 644 is a decent achine.. we have quite a few of those at the GC I work for... loaders do the bulk of our clearing, and dozers do the dirt work and shaping.. occasionally we let hoes dig the big trees out, and use a dozer to knock some medium trees over.

Soundguy

rlee6 · May 10, 2005

All I know is that it is 3 or 4 yard loader. It may not be as large as JD644, which is 180 hp according to jd. I am afraid it's either what they have or wait for another few weeks for a 180 hp machine.

By the way, how do you do it actually? Do you push the palms laterally or lift them up out of ground? Or try and error? Thank you.

JoeR · May 10, 2005

Don't underestimate the palmettos or the skill it takes to pop them out. Most operators I have seen go forward until they get resistance then lift up. Palmettos are messy, and their roots hold dirt. You will need to shake them out if you plan on burning them. Dirt doesn't burn, and if there is too much dirt in the pile, you will not get a clean burn.

By the way, is the rental company requiring you to have liability insurance? I was looking at renting a large loader, but decided to pay someone to do it. They did it faster and with more skill than I have.

Good luck!

Joe

rlee6 · May 10, 2005

I wasn't going to do it myself until I got a quote of $2000 per acre. That was too much for me to absorb. Rental is about 800 for 2 days + 140 delivery + 120 damage/loss insurance + 100 fuel + 80 tax. Still it's less than $2000 and I assume I can clear 2 acres, fence line, and road tie to main pavement.

If you know someone who can do it for less, please let me know. Thanks.

Dargo · May 11, 2005

( I have seen go forward until they get resistance then lift up. )

I do not know about Palmetto trees at all, they just don't thrive in Indiana. However, I've dropped some huge oak trees with a dozer in the same manner mentioned. I did have one big problem though. On one particular oak, I powered against it, pulled back on the joystick to lift the blade, and stood on the power spinning both tracks. The big oak cracked and went over just like I expected. However, the root ball came up between the tractor and the blade. Being that this tree was much larger than the others (I was using a D9 - BIG), the stinking root ball stuck firm between the tractor and the blade. No problem, right?! Just back up until it comes out. Not! After dragging that stupid tree around for nearly 2 hours I finally had to go get a chain saw! /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif

You would think that after 2 hours of bouncing, dragging, beating, and cussing, that there wouldn't be much dirt left in the roots either. Wrong again! /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif What a mess. Not only did I waste a lot of time, but I ruined a good chain saw blade. Man, I felt like a kitten with a ball of string stuck to my claw. /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif I could shake the heck out of that tree, but it wouldn't let loose of me. /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

EddieWalker · May 11, 2005

( I wasn't going to do it myself until I got a quote of $2000 per acre. That was too much for me to absorb. Rental is about 800 for 2 days + 140 delivery + 120 damage/loss insurance + 100 fuel + 80 tax. Still it's less than $2000 and I assume I can clear 2 acres, fence line, and road tie to main pavement.

If you know someone who can do it for less, please let me know. Thanks. )

The math sounds good, but you're basing it on how fast you can clear an acre. I've never seen the trees you're talking about, so I can't comment on them, but from what others have said, they sound like tough buggers.

Just knocking everything down is one thing, cleaning it up and building piles can really eat up the time. If you do this yourself, be sure to have a plan on where you want the piles. Clear that area first, then work your way out, always moving your debri into the burn pile, or piles.

If you create a huge mess, then expect to clean it up in a few passes, you'll be in for a huge suprise. I know from experience. Always clear and clean up in small patches at a time. It's faster and less destructive to the machine.

Pay attention to what Dargo said about that root ball getting stuck for two hours. Something totally unpredictable WILL happen. If your lucky, it will be easy to fix, repair or you can adjust to it, but if not, you could spend a whole day or more dealing with it.

$2,000 might not be such a bad price when you consider he'll be dealing with all the headaches and issues that will arrise. He'll do it faster, cleaner and better then you will. Sometimes spending more up front is MUCH, MUCH cheaper in the long run.

Good luck and post photos,
Eddie

OkeeDon · May 11, 2005

I can't offer any help this time, because I like palmettos and wish I had more of them. I have just a couple of clumps that provide a nice backdrop for landscaping. I guess if you have too many they could tend to get in the way.

We did all of the clearing on our 5 acres with a Cat 416C loader, equipped with a root rake. The root rake is the key to clearing anything in Florida. Get down under and curl it up. I would think the dozer might tend to break them off rather than getting htem out, but then, I've never used a dozer. The size of the tractor for the rake is not as important as the lifting power of the loader, although the two are often somewhat related. I made a root rake for my TC18 that works much better than what you would expect from my (approximately) 750# lift capacity,

Soundguy · May 11, 2005

Yep.. Ideally, You could use a bucket to put pressure on them, then pop them out. Then use a root rake to grouse around, and haul the debri to the burn pile.. the rake really helps get the dirt to drop before the pile.

Soundguy

Highbeam · May 11, 2005

Two acres in two days is overly optimistic in my opinion. You will never believe how big an acre is or how much debris you will pile up. Burning will take several days too.

I guarantee you can make a pretty good mess and even do quite a bit of work in two days but not two acres by yourself with a loader.

A little trick you should be aware of is that all the rental companies up here in the NW rent their equipment by the work day meaning that your two day rental adds up to 16 hours on the machine clock or else you pay extra.

regor66 · May 11, 2005

Those palms sell for pretty good money in the nurseries here in the Palmetto State. (South Carolina) You might see if anyone there harvests them for shipment to other areas and get some help with that land clearing.

rlee6 · May 11, 2005

Thank you for waking me up into reality. I did some simple arithmatic and realized my mistake. There is no way I can clear 2 acres in 2 days. I have never operated a loader before. The first day I will be pretty much wasting my time, learning the right moves. I changed my goal to 2 acres in 1 week. Rental goes up from $800 for 2 days to $1500 for 1 week.

After all, I think $2000 per acre is not a bad deal. If my parcel was just 2 acres, I would hire someone. But my parcel is larger than 2 acres and I cannot pay $4000 each time I clear 2 acres. That's almost the price of the land. Once I get used to loader/palmetto pulling, I will be able to save money down the road. My goal is to come out even this time.

If someone would take my palmetto palms, I would pay him gladly. But I am not aware of such deals in central Florida. If you know anyone, please let me know. I have many more palmettos to get rid of. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

8 hour limit/rental day is same here. A 3 yard loader with quick disconnect root rake (120 hp JD544, not 180 hp 644) will arrive tomorrow morning. In 1 week I will know if I made a mistake or not. I just cannot pay $2000/acre without trying it myself first.

One more thing. Starting from the burn pile and working my way out. Thank you very much for this tip.

ScottAR · May 12, 2005

Expanding on the technique... Build several piles along the "path"

Trying to centralize the piles will waste a lot of time and fuel driving back and forth. Smaller piles are easier to burn safely.

rcrcomputing · May 12, 2005

I sure like to see some pictures of these 3' tall tree's that are so much fuss!

Soundguy · May 12, 2005

I also hope the guy has fuel on the site. I know he's going to be burning a good supply of diesel in a 544. 5 gallon cans will get tireing very soon!

Still.. once he gets the hanf out of pressure and popping them out with the bucket.. it will be better.. then he can collect the debri with the rake all at once, and then go about root raking as clean up. Then back to the bucket to 'fix' and backdrag areas while the pile(s) burn And with palm.. that's a slow burn...

If it were me.. on my time... and I had a tractor.. i think I'd chain saw the big ones down and the mow the small-ish ones down, and then tinker with the box blade a little.. and just do some every week.. very cheaply.. ( if I had the time.. )

Soundguy

OkeeDon · May 12, 2005

Hey Sound, you've mentioned popping them with a bucket and then using the rake a couple of times -- you may be right, I know you've got a lot more experience than me, but when we rented our TLB for clearing, the curved tines on the rake when down and under the roots a lot easier than a bucket, and popped whatever we were after right out of the ground. We didn't do any palmettos, but I did pop some 7'-10' cabbage palms out where they were in the way of the house or barn. The bucket couldn't get as deep in the ground as the rake.

The pepper tree in the attached picture wasn't picked up off the gorund; it was popped out of the ground by the rake exactly as it sits in the rake in the picture! Palms, while tough, are easy in comparison.

Highbeam · May 12, 2005

The official clearing method for forests is to knock down and then pile. So you run the machine across the forest just knocking things down, popping them out, and leaving them there. Then is a seperate operation you go perpendicular to the first direction and push the debris into rows as far apart as is possible with the equipment you have.

In the olden days, the windrows would be burned one at a time from the windward side. But I have found that taking a chunk at a time out of the windrow and pushing it into the area between the rows for burning is better.

Whatever you do, enjoy the seat time. That propery will benefit greatly from being deforested.

49tandc · May 12, 2005

Stinking Palmettos... - I'm in the middle of doing this exact thing on my 40 acres. I have a 50HP 4WD tractor/FEL and just had a root rake made for the express purpose of removing palmettos. I'm just west of Gainesville and we haven't had much rain lately - very dry soil 8"-12" inches down. When I put the rake under the palmettos and in 4WD, move forward until I can't go any further and curl the rake up. MOSTLY successful doing it like this. If the palmetto clumps are big/thick, it lifted the rear of the tractor clear off the ground (to my surprise!!!). I'm working from the house outward, and as stated before, making numerous smaller burn piles. You've got to let the palmettos dry out for a week or 2 before burning them. When they are freshly dug, they are heavy, a week or so later, much lighter & burn well.

I dig up the palmettos/wild rosemary (greasewood) and then disk the sandy soil. After the disc, a landscape rake cleans up the mess pretty well. I can't set any sort of timeframe for the entire task, just doing what I can when I can.

Does any FLA guys have success using TSC 2-4-D on palmettos?

49T&C

JoeR · May 12, 2005

Most palmettos which are in clusters are more like 5' tall. Their roots grow together and when you try to pull one, you are pulling 5 to 15. They have these stringy roots that are about as thick as a finger, but it is like spider webs woven under the soil. Palmettos also burn green! You do not want them too close to your home since they love to burn. Many times, the pine trees will drop their needles onto a palmetto stand. The palmettos suspend the dead needles above the ground and this creates nasty fires! Plenty of fuel above and air underneath.

I tried to use my L4330 with a grapple rake and it took me three weekends to clear a 40x50 area. The palmettos would bring me to a dead stop. I realized my tractor was not big enough, and I was getting tired of my poor progress at clearing. Once the big machine finished, I was able to use my tractor to shake out the piles and get things ready for burning.

Joe