Concealed weapons good or bad (part 2)

Old_Hickory · Jan 16, 2004

"To All - It appears we have plumbed the depths of Concealed Carry on this thread. Feel free to start another thread if I am mistaken."

Alright here is the other thread....carry on.

Docsknotinn · Jan 16, 2004

Picking up the conversation where it ended ??? What a novel idea. What do others feel about Roy's post ? That scares the living buggers out of me ? Dave

MikePA · Jan 16, 2004

Guys, come on, you didn't just join TBN. Judges, second ammendment and treason, all in one sentence = politics. Please, don't go there.

Docsknotinn · Jan 16, 2004

Why is it we only enforce the politics " rule" on pro firearms stances ? There are numerous strands and posts that are politically based. Even choosing a tractor brand can be turned political. The previous post that was shut down was one of the most civel strands ever. You asked us to re start so we did and now the topic is not proper ? /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif

MikePA · Jan 16, 2004

Why is it we only enforce the politics " rule" on pro firearms stances ? 
This has nothing to do with pro- or anti-firearm stances.

 You asked us to re start so we did and now the topic is not proper ? 
My suggestion was to restart a discussion about Concealed Weapons, not start one about the second ammendment and accusing judges of treason.

Docsknotinn · Jan 16, 2004

Mike, with all due respect I think you mean to say this does not have any thing to do with pro or anti firearm stances to you. How can we talk CCW with out discussing the laws ? I noticed another had a problem with the CCW conversation turning to a national concealed carry debate. How can it be any thing but national when we have members from every state ? The varying laws from state to state are the primary focus because it is what directly effects us all weather you are for or against. Dave

fivestring · Jan 16, 2004

"Concealed weapons good or bad" (part 2)


Good 

In NC, you must carry your CCW permit at all times when you are carrying.
You must show it to any police officer that requests it.
You go to jail for CCW if you don't have the permit on you or you don't show it when asked.

This is good.

Chuck52 · Jan 16, 2004

Discussing the laws in a rational and reasonable manner would probably be allowed. Accusing a judge of treason because you don't like his ruling is neither rational nor reasonable.....the definition of politics!

Chuck

BillyP · Jan 16, 2004

In Oklahoma, if you get pulled over and you have a CCW permit, the first words out of your mouth better be "I have a CCW permit". This is true whether you are carrying or not.

Docsknotinn · Jan 16, 2004

I believe in Michigan you must notify a officer any time you come in contact with them that you are carrying. For example if you are pulled over while driving.
Chuck, Too Chez /forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif Good point. Dave

fivestring · Jan 16, 2004

It's the same here, too. That's when we usually ask for the CCW permit.

Junkman · Jan 16, 2004

( I believe in Michigan you must notify a officer any time you come in contact with them that you are carrying. For example if you are pulled over while driving.
Chuck, Too Chez /forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif Good point. Dave )

I retired my CCW permit a few years ago when I decided that I had a better chance of living if I didn't have it. What convinced me was an officer that stopped me for a stop light being out and ran my plate before coming to the car. He had his gun drawn and ordered me out of the car. Just his knowing that I had a permit was enough to push him over the edge and consider me a dangerous person. I figured that if this police officer is reacting like this with a citizen that has a proper permit, who knows what the outcome would be if for the slightest moment that he felt I was threatening his life by putting my hand into my pocket for my license. There job isn't easy, but some of them do over react and I don't want to be a victim of a misdirected bullet from a police officer that makes a wrong assumption. I no longer have the permit, but it still shows up on a backround check I believe.
/forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif

gsganzer · Jan 16, 2004

I'm not sure retiring your license will make that problem go away. I had a one year period between when my license ran out before I renewed it (I didn't carry during that time). However, a run on my drivers license still came back saying I had a CHL.

I found this out when I got pulled over during that one year period. Because I didn't have a license and I wasn't carrying, I didn't think there was a need to say anything as the officer approached. He set me straight and all turned out well.

I'm not sure they keep the records current.

RanchMan · Jan 16, 2004

gsganzer -

Because I didn't have a license and I wasn't carrying, I didn't think there was a need to say anything as the officer approached. He set me straight and all turned out well. 

Unfortunately it seems to me that this officer "set you straight" in the wrong direction as never seen anything in the law that obligates you to provide your license if you are NOT carrying (see sec. 411.205 in the link on the previous thread and also to this page, top question) - and especially if you are not even a license holder! /forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif (if someone can provide the applicable law, please do.)

I think this goes to the point I made in the earlier thread - just because someone wears a badge or a robe doesn't mean they are legally correct.

Now, from a "practical" standpoint, you definitely went down the path of least resistance (vs. getting in to an argument with a cop! /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif) We all have to "choose our battles" after all, and simply nodding one's head is often the quickest way to get out of an awkward position.

QStottinNC · Jan 16, 2004

Fivestring made some valid points. I had first decided not to even post at all. For some reason, emotion over rode common sense. I knew I was opening the "flame me" door on my first post. I purposly did not mention the defense of a third party. I thought it would open a can of worms. My point about going armed at the "Terror of the public" was an example of how some gun owners perceive the open carry law, and not necessarily the "meaning of the law". Late at night with limited resources and in the interest of keeping discussions as short as possible, maybe I was not a clear as I should have been. I think we all know to take witha grain of salt what we read on the internet. It certainly would not stand up in court as a good defense. "But your Honor, I read it on the internet" won't help you much. From now on I will be sure to document my sources if possible. That brings me to a quote of the NC general statues. "
§ 14-34. Assaulting by pointing gun.
If any person shall point any gun or pistol at any
person, either in fun or otherwise, whether such gun or pistol
be loaded or not loaded, he shall be guilty of a Class A1
misdemeanor. (1889, c. 527; Rev., s. 3622; C.S., s. 4216; 1969,
c. 618, s. 2 1/2; 1993, c. 539, s. 17; 1994, Ex. Sess., c. 24,
s. 14(c); 1995, c. 507, s. 19.5(d).)"

Maybe thats not "assualt with a deadly weapon". But it certainly sounds to me like pointing a weapon at some one loaded or not is a crime in NC. There may be an exemption for police officers, but for civilians, I don't think so.

The good news is, that almost every I know that took a CCW class in NC comes out of the class with a much better understanding of the laws of NC. They also gain a great deal more insight into the "shoot - don't shoot" situations. Most of my students (after watching the state approved video tapes) tell me they are much less likely to discharge a firearm in self defense than before talking the class. The "shoot'm outside and drag them in the door" thing just doesn't work at all. Sorry for any confusion I caused, and next time I'll simply scan the CCW class testbook and post it online. /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif

mwechtal · Jan 19, 2004

Junkman,
I hope you reported the officer. You would have done a service to the community and to the Police force if you did. From your description he acted in an EXTREMELY unprofessional and dangerous manner. If he had shot you, the department would have been in trouble. The whole community ends up paying for mistakes like that. Trials, increased insurance, payments to you or your widow, etc.

He sounds like the officer (was it in NC?) who tried to pull over a lady for a moving violation. She didn't pull over at first because he was in an un-marked car and in her home state (FL) there had been problems with "Blue Light Bandits". So, in FL they stopped using un-marked cars for traffic enforcement and even told the people not to stop unless the car was marked. At any rate, when she did stop, he was clearly in a rage. He pulled his gun and told her to keep both hands on the wheel and open the door. She was afraid to let go of the wheel, but afraid not to open the door. When the door was finally open the officer tried to drag her out while her seat belt was still fastened. Finally he threw her down and cuffed her. The camera in his own crusier caught all this.

Mike

gsxr1100 · Jan 19, 2004

Here is good old Massachusetts you do not have to tell the cop anything when you are carrying. You must have a permit to CCW but when they stop you or anything you do not have to tell them you have a gun, per our law.

Also I home the assault weapon bans sunsets this fall.

fivestring · Jan 20, 2004

"§ 14-34. Assaulting by pointing gun.
If any person shall point any gun or pistol at any
person, either in fun or otherwise, whether such gun or pistol
be loaded or not loaded, he shall be guilty of a Class A1
misdemeanor. (1889, c. 527; Rev., s. 3622; C.S., s. 4216; 1969,
c. 618, s. 2 1/2; 1993, c. 539, s. 17; 1994, Ex. Sess., c. 24,
s. 14(c); 1995, c. 507, s. 19.5(d).)"

As written, one would think that every time a gun is pointed at someone, one has broken the law. This is not true. One has to look at the case laws stemming from that statute.
Examples.....
Statues tell us homicide is illegal, period. One would think that if you killed someone, you automatically go to jail. Not so...
Case laws show us that self-defense is but one way out.
I have yet to see a homeowner here in this area charged with homicide, manslaughter, etc. for shooting a thug that has or is breaking into their home.
The statute states that assault is illegal, period.
Case laws show us that if your assault was in defense of yourself or a third person, it is justified.
Self-defense is a defense.

These are but a couple of examples.
If common sense tells you that what you're doing might be wrong, it usually is.
I don't want people thinking that they can not defend themselves. Like an earlier reply stated, police can not be everywhere and there will never be enough police officers to guarantee safety of everyone. There are, however, enough lawyers. /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif /forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

fivestring · Jan 20, 2004

"The "shoot'm outside and drag them in the door" thing just doesn't work at all." 

That is correct.

There are times when shooting them outside is justified so why drag them inside? You have just messed up the crime scene.

The key to all laws is "what a reasonable person" would do.
A reasonable person would "fear for his/her/third party's life" at that particular time. You must only convince 1 jury member.