Dodge Cummins Engine Concern

[RickB]

So what is the reason? Space considerations preventing a large single battery that would essentially be 2 series 6s. The 6V battery is being supported in less and less variety.
,,,.Youre right ... Theres no debate that a larger number of cells [12 vs 6 cells] presents a higher number of potential failure points. And one weak cell in a // system takes down both batts.

One bad cell in a series system results in an immediate no start. Simply not the case with a parallel system.

Read this thread:
Viewing a thread - Two 12 v batteries vs two sixes volt series&highlightmode=1#M3732771

And I admit to a mistake; IH abandoned 6V batteries in series in the late 1970's.

 

[SPYDERLK]

One bad cell in a series system results in an immediate no start. Simply not the case with a parallel system.

Read this thread:
Viewing a thread - Two 12 v batteries vs two sixes volt series&highlightmode=1#M3732771

And I admit to a mistake; IH abandoned 6V batteries in series in the late 1970's.

Thanks for the link. [You may want to delete the 2nd of the double post.]
,,, Gerald J in the linked thread develops the issue credibly. -- 12V batteries are fresh and there is a plentiful variety to choose from. Its unlikely to find 6V fresh, and certainly not with the newest insulator and plate technology. I was wondering at the lack of reliability thats reported. ... An unfortunate development because the series setup is inherently superior.
,,,,This is due not only to fewer parts to fail, but to the same current flowing in each cell. This equal treatment favors an equal charge in each cell, equal charge cycling in use, and more stable aging.

,,,,A cell can fail in several ways. The most usual is a continuous increase in its internal leakage current due to breakdown of insulation between its plates. Sometimes this happens very quickly, but usually the increase is slow. The effect of the leakage, of course, is to discharge the cell. -- The good/best cells discharge about 5% a month - the one going bad discharges way faster. Still, with a standard battery configuration [a series string of 6 cells], when a vehicle is used every day the degradation wont be noticed subjectively until the bad cell has discharged to about half during the interim between starts. Then you might notice the crank slowdown just as the engine catches. Time to pay some close attention to that battery.

With the parallel setup there are 2 series strings of 6 cells working side by side. Currents from and to each side are different. Both sides suffer from this. This fact affects longevity, but in actual practice remains "in name only" until a cell in either of the batteries falls off its nominal performance. The bad going cell causes the battery its in to siphon power from the good batt at all times. ... It gets the majority of the charge, and then when the engine is off it sucks power from the good battery to keep itself charged. The healthy/suffering batt camouflages the developing failure longer than would be the case for a single large 12V batt with a cell going bad.
,,,,So, if you miss the signals from each of the different setups- how bad is the startup issue when it bites? Both systems have a "dead"/discharged cell. The 6 cell system has 5 charged cells. ... The 2 x 6 cell [parallel] system has 5 charged cells in the battery with the "dead" cell. The battery connected to it has the same voltage because it has been keeping it charged. It is a 12V healthy batt that has been discharged to ~10V. Its essentially dead. No help for a start there.

The 1 x 6 has 5/6th of its charge whereas the 2 x 6 has just 5/12th of its charge.

,,,Which would you prefer to jumpstart?
larry

 

[RickB]

Thanks for the link. [You may want to delete the 2nd of the double post.]
,,, Gerald J in the linked thread develops the issue credibly. -- 12V batteries are fresh and there is a plentiful variety to choose from. Its unlikely to find 6V fresh, and certainly not with the newest insulator and plate technology. I was wondering at the lack of reliability thats reported. ... An unfortunate development because the series setup is inherently superior.
,,,,This is due not only to fewer parts to fail, but to the same current flowing in each cell. This equal treatment favors an equal charge in each cell, equal charge cycling in use, and more stable aging.

,,,,A cell can fail in several ways. The most usual is a continuous increase in its internal leakage current due to breakdown of insulation between its plates. Sometimes this happens very quickly, but usually the increase is slow. The effect of the leakage, of course, is to discharge the cell. -- The good/best cells discharge about 5% a month - the one going bad discharges way faster. Still, with a standard battery configuration [a series string of 6 cells], when a vehicle is used every day the degradation wont be noticed subjectively until the bad cell has discharged to about half during the interim between starts. Then you might notice the crank slowdown just as the engine catches. Time to pay some close attention to that battery.

With the parallel setup there are 2 series strings of 6 cells working side by side. Currents from and to each side are different. Both sides suffer from this. This fact affects longevity, but in actual practice remains "in name only" until a cell in either of the batteries falls off its nominal performance. The bad going cell causes the battery its in to siphon power from the good batt at all times. ... It gets the majority of the charge, and then when the engine is off it sucks power from the good battery to keep itself charged. The healthy/suffering batt camouflages the developing failure longer than would be the case for a single large 12V batt with a cell going bad.
,,,,So, if you miss the signals from each of the different setups- how bad is the startup issue when it bites? Both systems have a "dead"/discharged cell. The 6 cell system has 5 charged cells. ... The 2 x 6 cell [parallel] system has 5 charged cells in the battery with the "dead" cell. The battery connected to it has the same voltage because it has been keeping it charged. It is a 12V healthy batt that has been discharged to ~10V. Its essentially dead. No help for a start there.

The 1 x 6 has 5/6th of its charge whereas the 2 x 6 has just 5/12th of its charge.

,,,Which would you prefer to jumpstart?
larry

I perfer that vehicles and equipment that I own and am responsible for do not require jump starts.

 

[sd455dan]

I would like to add a couple thoughts to Spyderlks comments,
Batteries fail generally in one of two ways: not counting old age and sulfation

1) short- a cell becomes a straight electrical path with no ability to store a charge, , but does have the ability to carry full current when the bad cell is in series with good cells - so a 12 volt battery will have aprox. 10.5 volts- but if used to spin a starter will still work although at reduced speed .
The other effect is it will work the heck out of the alternator-trying to bring the voltage up to around 14 volts and the battery will sweat excessively and out gas from the good cells being overcharged.

2) open cell - the cell is capable of holding a surface or even full charge , but because the internal series connection of the cell to other cells in the battery has failed or been degraded , the battery may show a full charge (voltage) , but when load tested will not be able to provide virtually any current.

I agree that paralleled batteries are more likely to have concealed problems as Spyderlk stated, one preventative measure that can be used- is to check the batteries independently with a load test periodically. my:2cents:

 

[RickB]

I agree that paralleled batteries are more likely to have concealed problems as Spyderlk stated, one preventative measure that can be used- is to check the batteries independently with a load test periodically. my:2cents:

Concealed problems allow a vehicle to start. Overt problems don't.
You both can argue against current manufacturing practice AND the proactive actions made by countless machine owners by investing in conversions away from series battery installations.
I'm wondering how many machines either of you own with multiple batteries connected in series?
In any event, I'm done with this discussion because at the end of the day I don't care if anyone is convinced that one way is better than another. I know what my preferences are.

 

[sd455dan]

Concealed problems allow a vehicle to start. Overt problems don't.
You both can argue against current manufacturing practice AND the proactive actions made by countless machine owners by investing in conversions away from series battery installations.
I'm wondering how many machines either of you own with multiple batteries connected in series?
In any event, I'm done with this discussion because at the end of the day I don't care if anyone is convinced that one way is better than another. I know what my preferences are.

Personally-I prefer parallel 12 volt systems and have changed over 1 tractor (rhino) from series-ed 6 volts to the paralleled 12 volt and my Dodge cummins came that way.

I am in no way advocating 6 volt series-ed systems - and cost savings alone make the 12 volt parallel set ups preferable to me.

 

[PoorMansCat]

FWIW, I have an 06 model for sale... but it aint gonna be cheap.

 

[SPYDERLK]

Concealed problems allow a vehicle to start. Overt problems don't.
You both can argue against current manufacturing practice AND the proactive actions made by countless machine owners by investing in conversions away from series battery installations.
I'm wondering how many machines either of you own with multiple batteries connected in series?
In any event, I'm done with this discussion because at the end of the day I don't care if anyone is convinced that one way is better than another. I know what my preferences are.

Zero. I go to the highest performing 12V batt available and use it singly. 1000CA suffices for everything including the Dodge 5.9 Cummins down to 0F. Prior to that I had 2 failures of 2 batt paralleled systems in the Dodge over a 6yr period -- both a surprise no start. Now on the 3rd yr with the single battery. I will avoid a // system whenever possible.
... And the unavoidable poor quality 6V batts that led to paralleling 12V has already been established.
larry

 

[rswyan]

Well it is "a sad day in Mudville" for those that are old enough to understand the phrase.

The owner decided to sell it to a family friend of her father's (it was his truck, rip) and not to her friend, my wife. As a result I will not get the truck. Not happy, disappointed, all that, but, oh well.
Since the owner had been thinking about whether or not she would sell it for months I had put off looking elsewhere as I thought this was a deal worth waiting for.
Now I can look elsewhere without thinking that I missed a deal. I know I missed it, there is no thinking that I might.

Furu,

Here's my old '05 3500 SRW with 15K miles on it - it's still for sale - just by a different owner now:

2005 Dodge RAM 3500 SLT, Indianapolis, IN, 10690979, @ carmax.com

 

[Ken]

"..You put sugar on grits,not salt...."







YOU might. I don't.


No milk, either.

A little salt pepper and tobacco sauce for the red color.
Use the grits to soak up the egg yoke.

A little red eye gravy on the cats head biscuits and thick sliced bacon .

North of the Missouri line the folks don't enjoy good food.

Now back to Dodge trucks rusting. I found the hay forks driven into the tail gate causes considerable comments.
ken

 

[kenmac]

A little salt pepper and tobacco sauce for the red color.
Use the grits to soak up the egg yoke.

A little red eye gravy on the cats head biscuits and thick sliced bacon .

North of the Missouri line the folks don't enjoy good food.

You know how to eat !! You left out the white meat,,,, fat back we use to call it,,,, I think you mean Tobasco sauce instead of tobacco sauce

 

[RobertN]

Nah, this is "the" sauce
http://www.pepperplant.com/BV-Garlic.jpg
Amazon.com : 1/2 Gallon Chunky Garlic Hot Pepper Sauce : Pepper Plant : Grocery & Gourmet Food
Just returned from Monterey, Ca; picked up the 1/2 gallon jug!

You know how to eat !! You left out the white meat,,,, fat back we use to call it,,,, I think you mean Tobasco sauce instead of tobacco sauce

 

[RickB]

I think you mean Tabasco sauce instead of tobacco sauce

Probably an "auto correct" "improvement".

 

[Egon]

Any of you Southern Folk heard of Maple Sirup and Buckwheat Pancakes??

 

[RobertN]

Oh, yum!

We like to make pancakes from scratch. Use buckwheat flour. Or... 1/2 rye, 1/2 wheat flour.

Any of you Southern Folk heard of Maple Sirup and Buckwheat Pancakes??

 

[Ken]

Now I did miss the tobacco sauce. the failure to type correctly caused by old age curled fingers from typing on teletype machines.
The bacon fat back should be tossed into pinto beans or navy beans some do it to green beans .


Couple of years ago went to Michigan Wisconsin hauling cattle. and the waitress and cooks didn't have tobasco or La. hot sauce at the restaurant the cook sent out a out dated bottle that had sat on shelf so long the contents had separated.
RobertN Your container looks good can you use it in the engine to clean the injectors?

Dodge and Ford trucks do a lot of towing around Cattle sales barns. Now when you go by a sale barn look for a Chev. truck.

Egon I do like Maple syrup and Buck wheat pan cakes. Try some Molasses real stuff not the watered down with thin corn syrup.

Dodge trucks, grits and Buck Wheat pancakes where will this thread go next.
ken

 

[walnutman]

Ford GM and Chrysler build good trucks today. Dodge had a lot of trans issues before 2003 but fixed that afterwards. That was part of the bad rep Dodge is still trying to shake.
Ford hit paydirt when they designed the Superduty. GM and Chrysler continued to use the same 1/2 ton body for the HD's while Ford used a totally separate larger body for the Superduty's. For the life of me I don't know why GM and Chrysler did not pursue that route to compete. The Superduty cab is huge. That is one big reason contractors scooped them up. Plenty of room for big men or a bunch of landscapers. Also the Superduty had more towing capacity.

But today, much has changed.

Ford destroyed itself starting in 2003 with the 6.0 diesel. The word is in the first year over 50,000 had to be bought back. Ford got into a pissin match with Navistar over that. Navistar redesigned but it wasn't much better. Now Ford has it's own design 6.7 diesel in the SD. Unfortunately like Dodge and it's bad trans from way back, it's difficult to take the 6 leaker stigma away. The new 6.7 is a clusterfck as were the last two diesels in the SD. Open the hood and you will see what I mean. It has two separate cooling systems and so much crap it makes no sense. I feel bad for Ford technicians but from what I heard they have made a bundle over the years.

GM has done well with the Duramax Allison combination. I think the low rider independent suspension turns alot of people off but seriously, it's a proven reliable design. I don't think GM can get off the grocery getter syndrome that many truck men seem to have. I bought one of the very first Duramaxs in the country back in 2001. I owned it for three years and traded it in on my current truck in 2004. It was a fun truck with all kinds of power. Unfortunately my quest for power exceeded the trucks ability and I blew a head gasket..... Then a tree in my yard fell during a storm and crushed it. Had everything fixed and traded.

I currently drive an 04 Dodge Cummins Automatic. If you leave these trucks stock they are economical and VERY reliable. In the middle of the 2004 year Cummins released the "600". It was what is known as the 2004.5 engine. That added a CAT and revisions to the head. The 2003 and 2004 models had no CAT or EGR. That would be my engine. That is what makes this truck worth more than the average diesel truck of the same years.
At around 40,000 miles I modified it with a bigger turbo, injectors, head studs and had the trans built for 600+hp. I was not having trans issues even with a power box and dynoing 400hp but I was taking it up another level and took the experienced guys advice. Today I dyno 530hp with torque over 1000ft-lb. 146,000 on the clock and I just love this truck. Owned it for 10 years... since new. Wheel well on one side just starting to rust. Will have it fixed. The biggest issue I have had with this truck is with the front end. I run 35" 10 ply tires which are hard on it. I found the solution pretty much to keep things tight and it's holding up now. Larger steering box and a bunch of other mods that beef up the components did the trick.

Today is a whole different ball game. All of them now use DEF (diesel emission fluid). In a way this is a good thing because instead of doing too much to control emissions "in cylinder" where you lose power and fuel economy, they treat the exhaust in the exhaust stream to keep Al happy.

RAM today is poised to take a nice piece of market share from Ford. RAM 3500 dually is rated 30,000 towing, more towing capacity than Ford and has a better inline 6 cylinder industrial diesel. RAM also added the Aisin automatic that is said to be beefier than the Allison. I think RAM is the only one that offers a manual transmission now. Friend of mine is in the landscaping business said he went to a snow plow symposium and was told RAM sales and use in commercial is unexpectedly rising. He just ordered a 5500 Cummins Aisin himself.
I personally have noticed more and more RAMs in use with utility fleets and tow trucks and ambulances.
There was a tree guy in my development last week with two F750 Ford tree trucks. Both had Cummins ISX engines in them LOL

Today I think Ford is the iphone of trucks. Sheep buy them.

 

[Capricious]

"..Today I think Ford is the iphone of trucks. Sheep buy them..."



Better get some more popcorn. Show is about to begin....

 

[houstonscott]

"..Today I think Ford is the iphone of trucks. Sheep buy them..." Better get some more popcorn. Show is about to begin....

Wait, why add Ford, to that, should read, I think trucks are like iPhones, sheep buy them. Now get some pop corn. HS.

 

[walnutman]

Wait, why add Ford, to that, should read, I think trucks are like iPhones, sheep buy them. Now get some pop corn. HS.

No because the brand has had so much to do with the purchase. Same with the phone. Many iphone users are brainwashed.
The most common thing I hear from iphone users is that they are compatible with their other Apple products. So are Android phones compatible with Apple products except for Apple's "exclusive" features. Like can't change the battery and can't change the storage.