Buying Advice Does anyone make real Gas tractors anymore?

[PapeCAT]

Does anyone remember the John Deere 322 Gas powered Yanmar 3 cyl? Spark plugs instead of injectors I suppose. John Deere 322 yanmar - YouTube

Many municipalities use a lot of CNG 5.9 cummins engines as well. Pretty sure that tech would be a drop-in for AG application as well.

 

[RalphVa]

Yeah, we had a 2010 VW TDI. Got 40.2 mpg overall. When VW told us they'd buy it back, we parked it and bought a new 2016 Mazda3 2.5. It's overall average, driving it the same as we did the VW was 37, not much different.

Just recently I saw that VW is reaching 40 mpg now with their gas 1.4 liter turbo engine in their Jettas. (The only value that counts, unless it's a hybrid, is the highway figure. We've always met or exceeded the highway figure in overall average.)

Diesels are losing out by needing to use fuel to burn off the collected soot.

Engine experts say that if the gas engine designers put more compression ration into their engines to get close to that of a diesel, that they'll start running into NOx problems but no mention of soot. The Mazda3 engines are already about 12 or 13/1 compression ratio. Mazda's new compression ignition gas engines, their SkyActive X ones, will be running higher compression ratios. Think the TDI's was only about 16/1.

Ralph

 

[buickanddeere]

Gas engines just don't make the torque of diesel engines and torque is exactly what most people need in tractor applications. Oversimplified but a strong running gas engine will make similar hp and tq numbers while a strong running diesel can make double the torque as it's hp rating.

Take a look at the 4020 gas torque and 4020 diesel torque . Please tell us what the difference is .

 

[Gale Hawkins]

I'm not talking about air cooled lawn tractors. I recently bought a Mahindra 1526 and I'm pretty happy with it, but I think with Tier 4 emissions requirements the Diesels have lost nearly all of their advantages. Diesels used to be simple bullet proof engines, but now they have computers and DPF nonsense on them. My use for a tractor is all short runs. I fire it up, pick something up to move it 20 feet. Shut it off. or I tow a firewood trailer up a hill for less than a 100 yards and shut it off. I felt forced into the under 26 HP tractor as with my use frequent starts and short runs I would be clogging the DPF quick and I would never be able to do a proper regen as I never work it hard for a long length of time. I understand you can't just do a regen at idle, the engine must have a good load on it. Perhaps a guy that brush hog's a field can do a proper regen, but not me. The diesel engines might last longer, but they are more expensive. I think the only advantage of a Diesel is a bit of fuel economy. I was looking under the hood of my mom's 2015 Honda, it's no powerhouse, but it still must have 80-90 HP? The Honda engine is not much bigger if any than My 25 HP Diesel. It of course has a Cat for emissions, but it's tiny. It has a computer and OXS, but the new diesels have computers and sensors as well. It seems an engine like this would be perfect for a compact tractor. It's compact & quiet. Any 3 or 4 Cylinder liquid cooled gas powered compact tractors out there? If not why?

That is a good question. I grew up with 801 gas Fords and later Dad got a used Gas 4000 before moving to a new 4600 later. The guy selling the 711 one arm FEL that we brought home yesterday used his 3000 gas Ford and a boom pole to load it on the U-Haul steel trailer. The daughter and I talked about how much quieter it was then our 3000 diesel. Gas is hard to beat for tractors used in freezing weather in remote locations without electricity for block heaters.

When diesel was much cheaper than gas moving to diesel often made sense. I do think diesel is safer than gas but for me a gas burner would make more sense because I do not need the longevity and noise of a diesel engine. I guess with a nice cab the engine noise is less of a concern to many.

EPA regs makes it harder for any tractors burning fossil fuel today I expect.

 

[Creamer]

That is a good question. I grew up with 801 gas Fords and later Dad got a used Gas 4000 before moving to a new 4600 later. The guy selling the 711 one arm FEL that we brought home yesterday used his 3000 gas Ford and a boom pole to load it on the U-Haul steel trailer. The daughter and I talked about how much quieter it was then our 3000 diesel. Gas is hard to beat for tractors used in freezing weather in remote locations without electricity for block heaters.

When diesel was much cheaper than gas moving to diesel often made sense. I do think diesel is safer than gas but for me a gas burner would make more sense because I do not need the longevity and noise of a diesel engine. I guess with a nice cab the engine noise is less of a concern to many.

EPA regs makes it harder for any tractors burning fossil fuel today I expect.

What was the price difference for a 4000 Ford - gas to diesel - when they were new?

 

[Gale Hawkins]

What was the price difference for a 4000 Ford - gas to diesel - when they were new?

I do not know that. I do know the new 1962 Ford 801 basic gas model (4 speed transmission, no PS or hydraulic remotes) was $3200 in case someone else knows the diesel price of that era.

 

[Creamer]

I am just curious as to why people purchased gas tractors at that time. Easier starting in cold weather would be one reason but what else? I just remember how thirsty our Super MTA was as compared to an Oliver Super 88 diesel.

 

[Gale Hawkins]

I am just curious as to why people purchased gas tractors at that time. Easier starting in cold weather would be one reason but what else? I just remember how thirsty our Super MTA was as compared to an Oliver Super 88 diesel.

Fear of the unknown was a factor in the acceptance of the diesel tractor, auto transmissions, etc. Everyone had the tools to repair a gas burner but not to service diesel engines so much. I think Ford used the same size blocks as the gas engines and durability of them in the 50's were questioned.

Price difference would have been a factor for farmers buying small tractors often too I am sure. Just setting up another fuel tank and kind of motor oil to stock could have been a consideration.

 

[mikester]

I was making a point to the OP, that there are Diesel engines,over 25hp, that are not encumbered with complicated emissions systems, and computers.
...an DOC, requires no real maintenance, does not require any extra fuel burning, or any regeneration cycles.. it basically works the same as a catalytic converter on a gas engine, at least to my knowledge.
.. also on my 2017 model year tractor, there are no sensors on either side of the DOC, and it could be removed and replaced with a straight pipe, if someone so desired.. I personally know an old school feller, that removed it on his new tractor, and blocked off his EGR, he seems happy, and his tractor is running fine.. not what I would do while my tractor is under warranty, but to each their own

Modern clean burning gas engines have all the same computers and electronics and catalytic converters as the modern Diesel engines...they have to in order to be clean burning.

Those small gas engines you are talking about are environmental disasters and the peak of inefficiency in comparison. Small gas engines without the pollution controls generate way more NOx and CO2 and other unburned hydrocarbons. These small engines will probably end up getting banned in the long run due to their environmental problems.

You have to compare apples to apples. If you don稚 want pollution control buy an old tractor. If you want lots of torque and fuel efficiency you will end up with a diesel.

By the sounds of things you want an electric powered tractor since you don稚 use it much.

 

[mikester]

I am just curious as to why people purchased gas tractors at that time. Easier starting in cold weather would be one reason but what else? I just remember how thirsty our Super MTA was as compared to an Oliver Super 88 diesel.

Diesel wasn’t widely available at that time. Gas was plentiful. There’s relatively few electric and hydrogen cars on the road today because it’s hard to refuel them.

 

[LouNY]

There was a price difference, I don't recall the numbers, and then needing a second set of barrels or tank for diesel.
The main reason was the cool not even cold temperature starting, the early diesels were hard starting especially with 6 volt systems.
Many of them were hard to stat in the mid 40's much less cold temps.
It wasn't till the early and mid 60's that the starting and fuel efficiencies really improved and then they had to over come the faults of the older ones.

 

[buickanddeere]

Yeah, we had a 2010 VW TDI. Got 40.2 mpg overall. When VW told us they'd buy it back, we parked it and bought a new 2016 Mazda3 2.5. It's overall average, driving it the same as we did the VW was 37, not much different.

Just recently I saw that VW is reaching 40 mpg now with their gas 1.4 liter turbo engine in their Jettas. (The only value that counts, unless it's a hybrid, is the highway figure. We've always met or exceeded the highway figure in overall average.)

Diesels are losing out by needing to use fuel to burn off the collected soot.

Engine experts say that if the gas engine designers put more compression ration into their engines to get close to that of a diesel, that they'll start running into NOx problems but no mention of soot. The Mazda3 engines are already about 12 or 13/1 compression ratio. Mazda's new compression ignition gas engines, their SkyActive X ones, will be running higher compression ratios. Think the TDI's was only about 16/1.

Ralph

Soot is a problem when EGR and retarded injection timing lowers the combustion temperature.

 

[Texasmark]

There was a price difference, I don't recall the numbers, and then needing a second set of barrels or tank for diesel.
The main reason was the cool not even cold temperature starting, the early diesels were hard starting especially with 6 volt systems.
Many of them were hard to stat in the mid 40's much less cold temps.
It wasn't till the early and mid 60's that the starting and fuel efficiencies really improved and then they had to over come the faults of the older ones.

Last 2 years in high school I worked tug boats in and around the swamps of Southern Louisiana. Lots of oil sources in those winding swamps/rivers so lots of barge traffic. Out in the middle of nowhere was a fuel stop with boat supplies and such. We loaded 1000 gallons that morning for our boat at..................9 cents a gallon; late 1950's.

 

[freedomlives]

Do they still sell offroad diesel that's not taxed in the US? Here at some filling stations I've noticed a an option that's disabled for "Red Diesel". It would be nice not to have to pay the ~50% fuel tax they levy over here.

Our cheap fuel is LPG, a lot of gas cars are converted to it and its about 60% the price of gasoline. I'm surprised that no-one has hooked up tractors here for it (other than the odd home-made tractor). I think much of Europe has far cheaper LPG than gasoline.

 

[buickanddeere]

If you purchase a three or four cylinder Kubota diesel powered machine . Kubota sells direct drop in replacement spark ignition engines for those applications .

 

[buickanddeere]

If Tier V and Tier VI diesel emissions ever occur. The tractor manufactures will have to look seriously at spark ignition in the under 100HP category of light and medium duty equipment.

 

[MHarryE]

Some comparisons as to why gasoline tractors disappeared. Selecting 2 of John Deere's most popular models of the past, 4020 gasoline and diesel, the Nebraska tractor test showed the 4020 gas achieved 10.53 HP-hr/gal while the 4020 diesel achieved 14.77 HP-hr/gal. After this series (JD 4020, IH 806) gasoline versions virtually dropped out of the scene.

Comparing technology changes over the past 50 years, I selected a typical JD farm tractor with Tier 4 final Nebraska tested in 2017, the 6195M equipped with power shift, same as the 4020. It achieved 18.34 HP-hr/gal, a 24% improvement over the 4020. In addition the 6195M power increased from 161 to 181 as it lugged down from 2100 rpm rated speed to 1700 rpm where it produced it peak power. The 4020 reached peak power at 2200 rpm and dropped off from there - 8% torque backup vs 36% torque backup on the latest generation. The common rail injection system has significantly improved the ability to lug through tough spots.

It will be interesting to see if the tractor manufacturers do switch to gasoline engines as the EC Stage 5 emissions requirements come into effect. It would seem to be a major shift because even Kubota uses other brand gasoline engines in things like their zero turn mowers.

 

[buickanddeere]

Some comparisons as to why gasoline tractors disappeared. Selecting 2 of John Deere's most popular models of the past, 4020 gasoline and diesel, the Nebraska tractor test showed the 4020 gas achieved 10.53 HP-hr/gal while the 4020 diesel achieved 14.77 HP-hr/gal. After this series (JD 4020, IH 806) gasoline versions virtually dropped out of the scene.

Comparing technology changes over the past 50 years, I selected a typical JD farm tractor with Tier 4 final Nebraska tested in 2017, the 6195M equipped with power shift, same as the 4020. It achieved 18.34 HP-hr/gal, a 24% improvement over the 4020. In addition the 6195M power increased from 161 to 181 as it lugged down from 2100 rpm rated speed to 1700 rpm where it produced it peak power. The 4020 reached peak power at 2200 rpm and dropped off from there - 8% torque backup vs 36% torque backup on the latest generation. The common rail injection system has significantly improved the ability to lug through tough spots.

It will be interesting to see if the tractor manufacturers do switch to gasoline engines as the EC Stage 5 emissions requirements come into effect. It would seem to be a major shift because even Kubota uses other brand gasoline engines in things like their zero turn mowers.

Diesel will stay in the Heavy Duty Market that you described. As for the light and medium duty market........with stop/start duty, idling, operation at partial load for limited period of time. The DI and even the port injected spark ignition engine is more tolerant of such operation and a cleaner tailpipe can be achieved with less tech , less expense and less problems.
Outboard motors, snowmobiles, portable generators, forklifts, ATV's, manlifts, small water pumps, cars, light trucks, lawn equipment and garden equipment are spark ignition for a reason.

 

[Btown]

Diesel will stay in the Heavy Duty Market that you described. As for the light and medium duty market........with stop/start duty, idling, operation at partial load for limited period of time. The DI and even the port injected spark ignition engine is more tolerant of such operation and a cleaner tailpipe can be achieved with less tech , less expense and less problems.
Outboard motors, snowmobiles, portable generators, forklifts, ATV's, manlifts, small water pumps, cars, light trucks, lawn equipment and garden equipment are spark ignition for a reason.

That reason is there is no regulation on the pollution that comes out he exhaust and if you put a Diesel engine in them they would be heavier and cost more. Not sure if you noticed but Ram, Ford and Chevy will all have a diesel option in the 1/2 ton market in less than one year. Chevy already has the diesel option in the Mid size pick up, as well as the Cruze and the Mid size suv. There are several other cars with diesel, but VW has given up and on it in the US even though 1/3 third of the Jettas, Golfs and Passats they sold had Diesels in them and they got great fuel economy. Not sure why VW scammed the system on the NOX gas reduction. They were using urea and I don think any owner would care if they used 2-3 times as much. It’s not expensive. It was just stupid what they did. The funny thing is after this scandal broke, Europe did a test on their diesel cars. You guessed VW/Audi had the cleanest diesel exhaust by far of any auto maker they tested. But they way the emissions law is written, none were in violation.

 

[buickanddeere]

Diesel exists in the light duty vehicle market not because of the North American market. Diesel light vehicles exists because in Europe and various other regions where gasoline is a luxury item and is taxed more than diesel. If you can save $60 per tank of fuel in your car by using diesel instead of gasoline . Of course there will be diesel light vehicles.