Driveway Questions

[CurlyDave]

Well, our new house was finished about 6 weeks ago, and we are starting to move in.

We have about 1000' of driveway, 14' wide. Most of it has a grade of 15-16% and is pretty well made -- fabric, 1' to 5' of base rock (pit run shale) with 6" of 3/4" minus on top of it. The 3/4" - has been compacted into the base rock so it is really only about 3" thick now, but it is pretty well compacted. Drainage is good, and I will work on the few bad spots this spring to get it perfect.

Originally DW wanted to have it paved with asphalt next summer, but we have found that every year we get 2 or 3 snow storms and driving up an asphalt road with a few inches of snow on it is a lot harder than driving up a gravel road under the same conditions.

So the first big question is whether there is a low-maintenance way to pave the driveway which will provide good traction with modest (3" max) amounts of snow?

(What is chip seal, which has been mentioned?)

The second question is how to maintain the gravel driveway until it is paved, if ever, with this marvelous, mystery traction material.

I have a Frontier BB 1284 box blade (a real beast -- 72" wide, hydraulic rippers, 1250 lbs.) and a JD top-n-tilt, which could go on the 110 TLB. The problem I see is that if I rip up and redistribute the gravel on top of the road, it really needs to be re-compacted or it is just going to become a mess.

Is there an implement I need to re-compact the driveway? Back-drag with a bucket full of material? Tilt a full bucket slightly up and go forward to compact? Some kind of a roller?

Or, should I just forget the box blade and do something else?

 

[Egon]

Contracting - Chip Seal

A site explaining chip seal. It is added to an exisiting paved road. Just placed on gravel it will do no good. There is a lot of confusion on this point.

There are lots of other sites just Google.



In Alberta it was a regular addition to paved highways both for maintenance , traction and reflecting light giving more night time visibility.



Besides you have to do a little road maintenance just for exercise don't you???

 

[EddieWalker]

... and is pretty well made -- fabric, 1' to 5' of base rock (pit run shale) with 6" of 3/4" minus on top of it. The 3/4" - has been compacted into the base rock so it is really only about 3" thick now...

Dave,

Did you really put down five feet of base rock?

Driving over the road compacts it. The more you drive over it, the stronger it gets. The secret is how thick it is, and how good your drainage is. Mess with either of those two things, and it will start to disapear on you.

The biggest mistake that you can make, and it's very common, is to drag the rock around after it's been compacted. All this does is un-compact your rock, and make it thinner.

If the rock is less then four inches thick, it doesn not have any strength. Four inches or more and it compacts into a solid mass that will support heavy loads and shed water.

Over time, tires and rain will gradually wear away at the fines and the larger rocks willl work themselves free. Then you will get low spots with potholes apearing after awhile. Instead of damaging the entire road, just fix those low spots with fill.

Congratulations on your new home!!!!

Eddie

 

[rox]

Dave, 3" of snow? This is a problem? Coming from Wisconsin I guess we ust be more used to it. What we do is buy a vehicle that will take us tp our homes. When we built on top of a big hil we bought an suv. Your driveway seems ike an excellent build but with a good front wheel drive car or an suv i don't see where you would need to pave it at all. People who don't have the experience in driving in snow let fear take over, when realle the cars can make it through 3". 3" is not that much. Might try and have your wife drive with you as the passanger, to give her courage and support while she learns to get the hang of it. Practice and success will build confidence. I would put the money int a vehicle which you can use all the time rather than into asphalt.

 

[dfkrug]

(What is chip seal, which has been mentioned?)

"chip seal" is often used here in CA to maintain previously paved roads.
It consists of a spray of hot oil, then a layer of fine gravel, then a powered
roller drives on it.

Now that said, the minimum pavement our county allows is what they
call "double oil & screenings", consisting of 2 coats of the oil and 2
layers of the gravel, rolled betw oilings. Around here you can buy the oil
in a special trailer, borrowed from the asphalt plant. I suspect you really
need the 2 coats if you are not putting this down over existing pavement.

I think this is way better than gravel, and lots less money than A.C.
(asphalt). I went with asphalt myself, but I almost did the oil & screen.

 

[Shmudda]

Chip seal is the same as what we call "tar and feathered" here in Pennsylvania. See our great state road departement here in the land of taxes would rather tar and feather a road before fixing it right!

Craig

 

[CurlyDave]

Dave,

Did you really put down five feet of base rock?

Eddie

The earthmoving subcontractor is also the primary local supplier of quarry rock.

The driveway followed an old skid road up the mountain and local code said it shouldn't be more than 15% grade, 18% for short stretches.

It turns out we could do 15%, but had to fill in a few valleys, so they built them up with more base rock. It is at least 5' deep in some spots.

Congratulations on your new home!!!!

Thanks. I retired last April or May & have been living in Oregon since then.
DW is still holding down the fort at the old house in CA, but she is up here about half time.

 

[RFB]

Dave,

I sort of vote with rox regarding the snow. 4 wheel drive (at least in my neck o the woods) is ubiquitous, and even without it, 3 inches is just a light dusting.

My neighbor has a little front-wheel drive commuter doorstop-sized car (to use instead of his F350 4wd). He has no trouble jamming up 1 mile of 10% grade in 6 inches of snow.

If your area is cold, let that 3 inches stay and pack down. It becomes a nice solid base to plow over. If its not cold, it melts soon enough.

 

[Kays Supply]

In Illinois we call it "Tar & chip". Most of all the rural roads are done this way, and a big part of the city roads. A factor in my area , blacktop is taxed extra and tar and chip is not. I have a few hundred feet of blacktop, I put a heavy plastic wear strip on my blade. It hasn't snowed since I made the investment two years ago.

 

[CurlyDave]

I sort of vote with rox regarding the snow. 4 wheel drive (at least in my neck o the woods) is ubiquitous, and even without it, 3 inches is just a light dusting.

There are two conditions where life gets "interesting" even with 4WD.

The first is a few inches of wet snow on a steep paved road. The tires pack the wet snow down into ice right under them. We have 4WD and even with it, all 4 tires were spinning all the way up the paved road.

The second one is "black ice" where dew will form on the road and then freeze solid. There is just no traction on asphalt and nearly stopped vehicles have slid off a banked road.

Neither of these is any problem at all on a gravel road.

 

[ultrarunner]

I think it's the ice and not the snow... for snow you can always buy a good set of winter tires... for ice, it's a different story unless your talking studded tires or chains?

I too find blacktop roads more hazardous over gravel in icy conditions.

 

[lhfarm]

The second question is how to maintain the gravel driveway until it is paved, if ever, with this marvelous, mystery traction material.

I have a Frontier BB 1284 box blade (a real beast -- 72" wide, hydraulic rippers, 1250 lbs.) and a JD top-n-tilt, which could go on the 110 TLB. The problem I see is that if I rip up and redistribute the gravel on top of the road, it really needs to be re-compacted or it is just going to become a mess.

Is there an implement I need to re-compact the driveway? Back-drag with a bucket full of material? Tilt a full bucket slightly up and go forward to compact? Some kind of a roller?

Or, should I just forget the box blade and do something else?

First, I've found a rake with gauge wheels to be the best grooming implement. I've used a box blade and a rear blade. I just run the TC40DA with those wide R4s to do the compacting.

My biggest issue with my hilly gravel drive is keeping the drainage ditches clear of leaves and sticks. Gravel will wash downhill in a hurry if the ditch fills and overflows on the road. If the drainage is good on your road, maintaining it is really pretty simple.

 

[akpilot]

In Alaska it's also called chip-seal, however, I have never seen it used over existing asphalt, it is always applied over well compacted sub base (gravel road bed) HOWEVER, it is still very slick when it has ice on it!!

Have you considered using a rotary broom on your tractor, course this will only work before you turn it to ice

I don't think using a box scraper with a ripper is a very good idea, I think you will do more damage than good.

 

[EddieWalker]

Dave,

1,000 feet is a long driveway to pave or do anything with, but with the issues that you mention and the fact that this is your home, I'd consider concrete. You can do a finish on it that would be very agressive for traction in the worse possible scenerios.

Is this driveway the only way to get to your home? Is there another route that you can take while working on the road?

I saw a guy pour his own driveway up a very steep hill in sections. It probably took him 3 or 4 years to finish it, but he also probably saved thousands of dollars doing it this way. It was kind of like a puzzle to see it come together. First one section then a few months later, another in a different spot and so on.

Eddie

 

[CurlyDave]

s this driveway the only way to get to your home? Is there another route that you can take while working on the road?

The driveway is the only route to the house. It splits about half way up the hill, circles the house, and then re-joins itself, if that makes any sense.

Have you considered using a rotary broom on your tractor, course this will only work before you turn it to ice

It is only icy ~30% of the mornings for two months or so per year. Snow might be 2 or three times per year.

I am thinking about possibly leaving the majority of the driveway gravel, and paving the part closest to the house, where the slope is much less severe, with asphalt, in order to keep down dust and gravel tracking into the house.

At first DW objected to gravel for two reasons. First, she is a city girl in the process of becoming countrified, and she just didn't think it was "right". And, all the people we know with gravel have problems with dust in the summer, and gravel being tracked into the house all year.

After experiencing the traction issues this winter, she is more amenable to gravel on the steep parts and asphalt near the house.

I already have a fairly substantial amount of concrete near the house. I don't think I can afford concrete all the way to the house.

 

[PBinWA]

Dave,

Our private road is similar to your driveway only longer. Once you get that sheet of ice on it - you need studs (sometimes chains) and real 4WD (not AWD). Ice on flat roads isn't too bad. Climbing a hill is no fun.

We put gravel down on the ice which helps a lot but for the last two years I've just salted the road when it gets icy. The salt makes a huge difference and is fairly cheap.

Routine plowing and keeping as much snow off the road also helps from letting the ice get too thick.

Fortunately, the weather here changes quickly and it usually melts within a week.

The "too pave or not too pave" dilemna is tough. You're either spending time maintaining the gravel or your spending time plowing the road.

Congrats on the new home.

 

[forgeblast]

Our newspaper gave out bumper stickers that said
"Susquehanna County Roads We Chip them or Skip Them"

lol most of our roads are chipped. saves money, our driveway and road are modified. Makes clearing them in the winter easy. They plow the snow and drop more modified on the road for traction. keeps the road in nice shape.

 

[SpringHollow]

Around here, the steep driveways are all gravel. A few paved them and within a couple of years, they had them ground up. We use crusher run and do not have a dust problem. The road is another matter - every spring, clouds of dust and salt until we get enough rain to wash it away.

But I am surprised that you are having so much trouble. We usually do not plow until we have 6 inches or so. 95% of the time, front wheel drive is all it takes. There are a few days where the runoff from the road freezes on our driveway (the steepest part (20 degrees) of our driveway is right at the road) with such a slick ice that we need to take the truck to get out since it is 4WD. We did buy some extremely nice ice/snow tires for the minivan. They make all the difference in the world. On icy roads, i would rather be driving that than the 4wd truck (at least until I slide off the road - then 4WD would be much better to get out of the mess).

Ken

 

[Egon]

Gravel can be sprayed with a tacking emulsion that will keep the dust down. The problem is the emulsion then tracks into the house! Caught either way!

 

[FredH]

When you say 3/4 minus , Is this crushed shale or is it the 3/4 minus that many of the rock pits sale around here ? There is a huge difference in the quality of how well river pit run rock will hold up on a sloped driveway versus crushed shale . I get my crushed shale at North Slope on Hwy. 238 , ( it's about 3/4 mile west of the top of Jacksonville Hill as you go from Jacksonville towards Ruch ) . The problem with river rock 3/4 minus is much of the rock is round , in addition to the fines , ( which is basically sand ) , all of which , although you can roll it and compact it , It still wants to travel or shift .

My crushed shale driveway , ( 800' + ) starts out flat , then progresses uphill at an increasing pitch till the top . We just had it top again last summer with a 3" to 4" cap , no rolling or compacting , and it holds up great even when I turn my Bobtail Semi ( Semi without a trailer ) around at the bottom and back up the drive . With out a trailer , Semi's are pretty light in the back , so they have a tendancy to spin , yet I have yet to tear up the driveway or create any wash boarding effect . We have ours capped every 4 or 5 years , which usually equals about 3 to 5 loads depending on what else we have done .
This driveway is shared by 2 households , so it gets lots of travel .

The sealing that you are refering to is a process that the Forest Service uses around here in that they use various oils ( usually organic and last I heard it was like Banana oil or something ) to seal the rock . Not sure how well it would work on river run rock , since as I mentioned , that rock shifts on slopes , were as the Forest Service also uses crushed shale on their roads . Once they rock or grade a road , they then block it off to keep traffic off for 24 to 48 hours , spray the oil and let it cure . This is usually done on roads that are going to be seeing alot of traffic in the near future like for maintanance or logging operations to keep the dust down and to keep the road in better condition . It kind of acts like a glue , in that , once cured , it holds everything together pretty solid . Even though my better half and neighbors better half are both lead foots , we don't get much dust from our shale even with the driveway being a straight shot up the hill . Have looked at having it sprayed , which you can also buy the oil yourself and do , but once sprayed , you cannot use driveway for something like a minimum of 24 hours . Personally I have no plans on walking up my driveway any time soon .

Fred H.