fire pump

[WM75Guy]

I talked to the people @ Northern tool who told me that with the 106470 2" pump I should get about 85 psi with 150 feet of hose and 20 feet of elevation gain. Do you think that would be enough to knock down a grass fire? I don't have trees near my structures so it would probably be a grass fire I would be trying to knock down before it's too late, Not too fight a structure fire.

Sounds about right. We used 1" forestry hose for grass & brush fires. Use 150' of 1 1/2" and reduce it down to 1" forestry or single jacket hose for another 50'. Makes moving the nozzle around a lot easier and faster. Buy a 1 1/2" to 1" gated wye and get 2 50' rolls of the 1" hose and 2 nozzles. You can either have 2 50' lines or 1 100' line. That extra reach comes in handy sometimes.

 

[offroader]

Agreed!

My suggestion wasn't about reducing draft height but for overall simplicity of deployment and operation. I was throwing it out there as an option for you. When we need a portable pump on scene, the floaters are our go-to. The non-floating pump we have stays in the truck as backup.... It might have been used twice in the last decade. Been there done that, no need to try and reinvent the wheel.

One thing is for certain, FDs everywhere all use some of portable pump. I have NEVER heard of carrying a well pump for these purposes, submersible or not. Leave the well pump for running the house, its not a firefighting tool.

 

[offroader]

Thanks Cord. I'm no longer considering the Honda pumps. Everybody who knows about fire pump say you need more PSI than that to run a fire nozzle.

Those Honda pumps are not a fire pump. They are somewhere in between a trash pump and a clear water pump. The 55psi max pressure is what gives it away. Fire pumps will put out 200psi of pressure and cost 3x as much.

 

[leonz]

Do you really have enough time to prime a pump????

floating fire pumps use 2 cycle engines in most cases
with very high engine and pump speeds.

A submersible will let you soak the entire area with lawn sprinklers
and garden hose.

There was a 2 minute news blurb on NBC with a reporter
talking to a land owner in Washington State that used a
centrufigal pump on his dock to feed an entire battery
of lawn sprinklers that soaked sprinklers every day.

THE only reason it worked well is because his property was FLAT and the pump
had no issues with fighting head pressure.

A battery of sprinklers will use only so much water per sprinkler head and as long as you have
low volume sprinkler heads used to soak an area in a full pattern you will be ahead of the game as long as you have a coffee can to measure the water being pumped through the sprinklers.

Its no different than irrigating farm land in basic terms.

you can buy good garden hose to tie into the one onch poly pipe with fittings that would reduce down to 3/4 garden hose connections and then you can pump around the clock with a submersible on a raft.

Its better to act on preventing a grass fire with a brood herd of sprinklers and garden hose than having a grass fire creep up on you as they can be explosive if there are piles of dead vegetation or round hay bales around with a fire looking for oxygen.

At least talk to someone who deals with well pumps and verify what I said before you spend money you will not get back ffrom Northern Tool. Your dealing with water column weight, head loss, and total head pressureover a long distance which a submersible could care less about as they are deisgned to pump oil and water thousands of feet UP.



Been there done that.
As long as the top inch of soil is soaked with sprinklers you would be well ahead in reducing the possibilty of a grass fire.

 

[FarmWrench]

I don't know where the OP is from. "Here" most grass fires get hit by Indian tanks ( five gallon hand pump backpacks)or 2,1/2 gallon extinguishers.
We don't reach for floating pumps very often. The old 2 cycles have long died out and been replaced with oversized 2 CYLINDER! Machines. Too big too heavy and need too much ice removed. A standard portable pump is easy to prime after getting a small hole in the ice.
Ice may not be your problem but our solution may help you. Dry hydrants. Pre-plumbed suction may improve your response time.
I wash equipment with a standard Honda and pacer (fertilizer/ water) pump and 100' of 1,3/4" fire hose with a 1/2" smooth bore nozzle. The smooth bore works on much less pressure and has a lot less nozzle reaction. Gpm will be off at lower pressures but you can get by. This type of equipment is easy to find in a rental shop and you could test it. The big advantage of the Honda "fire" pump is hose thread. Any other pump you will need to come up with a camlock to fire thread fitting. (I made my own for the 1,1/2 thread) 2 1/2 fire hose is 7 1/2 tpi not on most lathe quick change.

I have lots of water moving capacity. If I was going to count on saving my house. I would use one of my pto driven Irrigation pumps, irrigation pipe and a "big gun" Irrigation nozzle, with fire hose as a back up.

If you have a tractor, you already have the horsepower and a ready, well maintained engine, supplied with hours of fuel to do it. Put even a 500gal tank on a wagon with a 3 pt pump and your ability goes up significantly.

 

[offroader]

I can use my well pump to run sprinklers. If a submersible works so well then why don't firefighters use them. Are ALL firefighters doing it wrong???? I agree with CDN Farm Boy

Do you really have enough time to prime a pump????

floating fire pumps use 2 cycle engines in most cases
with very high engine and pump speeds.

A submersible will let you soak the entire area with lawn sprinklers
and garden hose.

There was a 2 minute news blurb on NBC with a reporter
talking to a land owner in Washington State that used a
centrufigal pump on his dock to feed an entire battery
of lawn sprinklers that soaked sprinklers every day.

THE only reason it worked well is because his property was FLAT and the pump
had no issues with fighting head pressure.

A battery of sprinklers will use only so much water per sprinkler head and as long as you have
low volume sprinkler heads used to soak an area in a full pattern you will be ahead of the game as long as you have a coffee can to measure the water being pumped through the sprinklers.

Its no different than irrigating farm land in basic terms.

you can buy good garden hose to tie into the one onch poly pipe with fittings that would reduce down to 3/4 garden hose connections and then you can pump around the clock with a submersible on a raft.

Its better to act on preventing a grass fire with a brood herd of sprinklers and garden hose than having a grass fire creep up on you as they can be explosive if there are piles of dead vegetation or round hay bales around with a fire looking for oxygen.

At least talk to someone who deals with well pumps and verify what I said before you spend money you will not get back ffrom Northern Tool. Your dealing with water column weight, head loss, and total head pressureover a long distance which a submersible could care less about as they are deisgned to pump oil and water thousands of feet UP.



Been there done that.
As long as the top inch of soil is soaked with sprinklers you would be well ahead in reducing the possibilty of a grass fire.

 

[leonz]

Deep well submersibles are ment for light crude oil and well water,
NOT fire trucks that depend on floating fire pumps ment to refill
tankers or portable fire ponds.

I am trying to help you here by explaining how a deep well submersible can and will
overcome the distance and slope you have to pump water at a very high rate with the
right sized well pump suspended on a raft of PVC pipe.


The turbines in the deep well submersible pump create both volume and pressure pushing water
where it needs to go.

By employing a deep well submersible you wont need your well water to run sprinklers to
soak the ground and you can use low volume sprinkler heads every fifty feet to soak the ground
to make mud as long as the circuit breaker does not trip out, if you have a generator all the better
with a single phase 110 volt deep well submersible pump-theres nothing saying you cannot use
what ever hose you have as long as it does not leak.


SO if you have a 10 GPM deep well pump it will provide you with 600 gallons per hour to a set of sprinklers
and it will pump 14,400 gallons in 24 hours, 144,000 gallons every 10 days if let running around
the clock.

As long as that pump stays cool using a pump sleeve and leaving the screen in place you wil pump lots of water.
you just have to be sure to purchase the right gauge twin pump wire. if you have a generator that has a large wattage and amperage you can invest in a higher gallon per minute deep well submersible pump.


You could use a bunch of the sled type sprinklers that connect multiple sprinklers in one line and have
the impact sprinkler heads simply set for 360 degree operation and set the distance to maximum for the water arc.

 

[aczlan]

Deep well submersibles are ment for light crude oil and well water,
NOT fire trucks that depend on floating fire pumps ment to refill
tankers or portable fire ponds.

How about reading the OP's question where he said:

The idea of using a submersible pump (which I already have) would be fine for sprinklers (which I already have) but not for running a fire hose and why buy tanks when I got a whole entire lake just 150' from my front door.

and:

I talked to the people @ Northern tool who told me that with the 106470 2" pump I should get about 85 psi with 150 feet of hose and 20 feet of elevation gain. Do you think that would be enough to knock down a grass fire? I don't have trees near my structures so it would probably be a grass fire I would be trying to knock down before it's too late, Not too fight a structure fire.

Sounds more like using it for a grass fire before it gets to the "sprinkled area" vs running sprinklers (which could be done with his existing well).

Aaron Z

 

[N2DFire]

I can use my well pump to run sprinklers. If a submersible works so well then why don't firefighters use them. Are ALL firefighters doing it wrong???? I agree with CDN Farm Boy

I've been watching / reading this thread since the start and I think enough information has been put out here that you now have a basic enough understanding of hydraulics (GPM, friction loss, elevation loss, etc.) to understand the pump output you need for what you want to accomplish so I'm going to leave that alone.


I will second (third, fourth, whatever) the recommendation that you use a larger diameter hose (or fixed piping) to get from your pond to a supply point(s) and then reduce to 1" single jacket forestry hose. With good PSI at your supply point, you can push upwards of 500' of forestry hose and still manage to drag it around (over flat open ground) by yourself if need be.


As to your one question above - the main reason is because the usage conditions are different. You want a pump at your pond to use on site. In your case your pond isn't going to move (I hope). In our case we may draft out of this pond today, a different one next day(week, month, whatever) and yet a third place another day. Additionally they have the ability to "daisy chain" them together to provide higher pressures or to pump longer distances (Relay Pumping).

Having a submersible (well) style pump configured in some sort of portable fashion just isn't practical. At a fixed installation it is.


We have a very large wood mulch plant a few miles down the road from our station. If you are unfamiliar; freshly cut wood mulch has a tendency to "auto ignite" due to heat of decomposition and we get regular calls there for mulch fires.

They have a large pond with a (fixed placement) electrically driven irrigation pump on site. We have keys to the gates and the pump controls and about 95% of the time turning on their irrigation system & calling the owners to come cut it off later is all we need to do. In the interest of fairness & full disclosure - theirs IS a centrifugal style pump, but the intake piping, screens, etc. were installed when the pond was constructed. Unless you wish to do a lot of work retrofitting; then either a floating strainer type intake or the submersible pump seem to fit your situation better)


As FarmWrench mentioned - there will also be the issue of maintenance & reliability with any fuel driven pump system. How often do you plan on running / using it between install and when you REALLY need it? Again an electrically driven system seems to suit you better. In the event of power loss you can use a generator to power it (and I'd be willing to bet you already have at least one - if not I'd suggest a PTO driven one powered by your tractor for the same reasons as FarmWrench already stated).


One last thing and I shall retire my soap box; regardless of what system / components you choose - do not let the fact you have these extra capabilities lull you into a false sense of security. Much like fighter pilots have predefined bailout conditions; you need to decide now and make a "contract" with yourself that if things get to X point, then it's time to go.

Good luck on your project. I look forward to seeing what you come up with.

 

[CDN Farm Boy]

Deep well submersibles are ment for light crude oil and well water,
NOT fire trucks that depend on floating fire pumps ment to refill
tankers or portable fire ponds.

I am trying to help you here by explaining how a deep well submersible can and will
overcome the distance and slope you have to pump water at a very high rate with the
right sized well pump suspended on a raft of PVC pipe.

.

And several of us are trying to help you understand that while what you are suggesting will likely work, that doesn't make it the right choice.

I could commute to a downtown office on my tractor but that doesn't make it the right thing to do.

Floating pumps are meant to pump water from a standing source. Where that water ends up, the pump doesn't know or care within the limits of pressure losses.

 

[leonz]

Yes floating pumps whether they are high speed centrifugal or deep well submersible will
pump water from a standing source or river or creek with adequate water depth and feet
per minute of flow across the suction port. the same applies to a deep well submersible
in a pond. WE collectively do not know whether this pond is spring fed or rain fed so..............

I fully understand hydraulics and circulation of fluids as I stated earlier having
rebuilt hydraulic pumps and motors as well as installing Hale and Waterous Fire Pumps
in Saulsbury fire trucks.

A deep well submersible can have at least three turbine stages to pump water
and will continue to supply that water as long as the motor remains cool or has adequate
water depth to keep the motor cool.

As long as the submersible pump has a clear suction, and or a pump sleeve and
adequate water depth to pull water from it will work well.

Lots of folks use Deep Well Submersibles suspedned on a PVC float to aerate deep ponds.
My neighor has his mounted on a PVC pipe float with a one inch fan nozzle attached to it
with a pipe nipple to aerate his mud pond.


I guess he is going to have to talk to his local fire department about pumps if he
does not want to use an electric pump BUT according to him his budget is limited.
I also laid out a parts list for what he needs minus a generator.

As he lives in Eastern Washington State his is in a bit of a pickle as much of the area is a desert of sorts.

I wish him well and I want him to succeed, not fail.

 

[petegoud]

One thing to remember, and I'm speaking has a retired firefighter, just because a nozzle is rated at a certain psi ( say 100 psi ), that does not mean it has to be operated at that pressure. If you're going to be moving that hose all over the place ( like brush fires ), a much lower psi will make it much more maneuverable, allowing you to accomplish more things quickly without beating yourself. Just a thought.

 

[Cord]

Thanks Cord. I'm no longer considering the Honda pumps. Everybody who knows about fire pump say you need more PSI than that to run a fire nozzle.

I will say that I've used a straight fire hose nozzle on my clear water pump with rather impressive results. I first learned about the nozzle when we rented a hydroseeder and needed to run some water through the lines to clean them out. I put 500 gallons of water in the tank and "watered the trees" from 150' away! A fleepin' ton of fun! Based on that, I then bought one of the McMaster nozzles for my pump. It's a ex-military portable water pump. Rated at 65 gpm with a 50' lift. I don't know what pressure or what the max lift is. But, it does really well with that nozzle. I wouldn't try to fight a structure fire with it, but I'd take on a small grass fire. The problem that I see is the set up time. The pump requires two people move. Another trip for the fuel can. Hook up the suction hose, set it so it doesn't suck mud. That alone is 5 minutes. Run out the hoses. I can't see this process happening in less than 15 minutes. Not knowing where you are, but in that time, I'll be putting water on the smoking grass because the fire has already moved out of range. If you are serious about the need for fire protection, perhaps get a farm wagon with a 1,000 gallon tank and mount the pump right on the wagon. If the fill tank is prepositioned, you might get your response time down to just 5 minutes. Even then, 5 minutes is such a long time that the fire could be out of control by then. Not my post, but this is my pump: http://www.steelsoldiers.com/showthread.php?91764-New-Toy-65GPM-Yanmar-powered-freshwater-pump/page2 You have to log in to see the pics, but there are some good ones with a fire nozzle. Note he has the discharge hose kinked in the photos.

A while back we were burning some scrap wood from our barn reno. A gust of wind came up and blew a bunch of embers into the scrap wood pile we were feeding from. Within a minute there was a half dozen smoking hot spots. Thankfully I had a plan in place. We had already filled the atv sprayer with water and had the tree sprayer wand mounted. I worked on sucking heat from the main fire and the mrs drove the atv around putting out hot spots. In case those 25 gallons were not enough I had 6 5 gallon buckets of water already staged to quickly refill the tank. Thankfully, they were not necessary and we got the fires put out within a couple of minutes. Point is, when it hits the fan, you don't have the time to set up the pump. It already has to be standing by.

I second the "Indian" brand fire pumps. I keep one at ready at my off grid cabin.

McMaster-Carr

 

[Rock knocker]

There could also be someone who thinks he knows much more than he really does

Not on this board

 

[offroader]

Thanks everyone for all for your helpful input. I believe I know what I need for a system that will work for me. It's something I'll probably never need but at least I'll have the piece of mind of having it. As far as setup time that shouldn't be any more than it would take for the fire dept. to get there anyway and with all the other fires going on during this crazy fire season who knows what resources would be available.

I will say that I've used a straight fire hose nozzle on my clear water pump with rather impressive results. I first learned about the nozzle when we rented a hydroseeder and needed to run some water through the lines to clean them out. I put 500 gallons of water in the tank and "watered the trees" from 150' away! A fleepin' ton of fun! Based on that, I then bought one of the McMaster nozzles for my pump. It's a ex-military portable water pump. Rated at 65 gpm with a 50' lift. I don't know what pressure or what the max lift is. But, it does really well with that nozzle. I wouldn't try to fight a structure fire with it, but I'd take on a small grass fire. The problem that I see is the set up time. The pump requires two people move. Another trip for the fuel can. Hook up the suction hose, set it so it doesn't suck mud. That alone is 5 minutes. Run out the hoses. I can't see this process happening in less than 15 minutes. Not knowing where you are, but in that time, I'll be putting water on the smoking grass because the fire has already moved out of range. If you are serious about the need for fire protection, perhaps get a farm wagon with a 1,000 gallon tank and mount the pump right on the wagon. If the fill tank is prepositioned, you might get your response time down to just 5 minutes. Even then, 5 minutes is such a long time that the fire could be out of control by then. Not my post, but this is my pump: http://www.steelsoldiers.com/showthread.php?91764-New-Toy-65GPM-Yanmar-powered-freshwater-pump/page2 You have to log in to see the pics, but there are some good ones with a fire nozzle. Note he has the discharge hose kinked in the photos.

A while back we were burning some scrap wood from our barn reno. A gust of wind came up and blew a bunch of embers into the scrap wood pile we were feeding from. Within a minute there was a half dozen smoking hot spots. Thankfully I had a plan in place. We had already filled the atv sprayer with water and had the tree sprayer wand mounted. I worked on sucking heat from the main fire and the mrs drove the atv around putting out hot spots. In case those 25 gallons were not enough I had 6 5 gallon buckets of water already staged to quickly refill the tank. Thankfully, they were not necessary and we got the fires put out within a couple of minutes. Point is, when it hits the fan, you don't have the time to set up the pump. It already has to be standing by.

I second the "Indian" brand fire pumps. I keep one at ready at my off grid cabin.

McMaster-Carr

 

[coldsteelva]

Realizing that I am a bit late to the discussion; have you considered installing a dry hydrant at the top of the hill and running a permanent PVC line to the pond with the pump attached. If the need ever arose, you wouldn't need to run as much hose and the friction within the PVC should be less than woven hoses.

Not a firefighting expert by any means, but just a thought outside the box of the original query.

 

[CDN Farm Boy]

With a theoretical limit of 33.9 ft of lift for drafting, it makes much more sense to have the pump at the bottom of the hill. It's FAR easier to push water up the hill than it is to try and pull it. Practically speaking, lift is more in the 20-25 ft range