GM being sued

[Markcuda]

One things for sure. I owned one gm and will hopefully never own one again

I had a 1973 Buick Riviera in 1980ish, no GM vehicles since, and never.

 

[3930dave]

What needs to be considered is - What company controls were in place ?

"But Barra, questioned repeatedly at a news conference, said she could not explain why engineers at GM approved a switch that did not meet the company's performance standards."

GM inquiry into defective ignition switch draws fire - Los Angeles Times

While I expect there were plenty of financial controls in place for the car programs in question, given how long this problem dragged on for it seems pretty apparent that there were few real engineering controls and oversight in place. Executive deniability is a pretty common contagion, which unfortunately seems to have infected GM's Engineering sector.

13 deaths (documented, so far)..... you can play with manufacturing stats all you want.... I see a negligent culture, that might get corrected by major lawsuits.

Rgds, D.

 

[PoorPlowboy]

I don't understand...even with the Toyota sticking throttles......if you can't control a vehicle just because the engine shut off, or you have no power steering or brakes, you should turn in your licence and stay home.
I've blown steer tires off big rigs...loaded to 140,000 pounds, in a corner at 65 mph, hood and driver side fuel tank blown off, and I just pulled off to the shoulder and stopped. No episode what so ever.
Some people just shouldn't drive.

If anyone should be sued and out of business it should be Ford for their Powerstrokes.

Did the key rotate back to "off" or all the way back to "lock," locking the steering wheel?

 

[Monster5601]

Did the key rotate back to "off" or all the way back to "lock," locking the steering wheel?

To off, not to lock.

 

[jejeosborne]

Ok, for the sake of discussion, what is an acceptable failure rate for anything?

For a brief discussion of failure rates, look here. Complex isn't it?

.5 = 50%... the divorce rate in the US

.25 - .1 = is the rate of miscarriages

.005 = chance your house will be struck by lightening, 1 in 200

.0000036 = chance you will be struck by lightening, 1 in 280000 in USA.

.0000034 = 3.4 failures in 1000000 (a million) which is the much touted six sigma rate for a single defective manufacturing part per million opportunities.

GM has linked 54 accidents and 13 deaths to faulty ignitions, according to USA Today.

.0000027= 54 accidents in 20 million vehicles (20,000,000) = .0000027

This means that GM has achieved better than six sigma in its manufacturing process. I'll leave it to the statistical wizards and six sigma guru's of TBN to determine if a key switch is a manufacturing opportunity, or is the entire vehicle a manufacturing opportunity?

SO, AGAIN, WHAT IS THE ACCEPTABLE FAILURE RATE, IN A REAL WORLD WHERE STUFF HAPPENS??

To have a valid response, you need to include a number.

My vote is that six sigma, .0000034 failures per DPMO, is adequate, in a real and practical world, requiring no change in part or recall.

So, what is your number and how did you achieve it??? Please support how your number is achievable, in a real world, with references, as I have done.

No number and no supporting references = no reason to listen, it's just puffery.

Just for the sake of discussion, and recognizing that people suffering death or accident, of any kind, from any source, have been grievously harmed and that all possible efforts should be made to avoid such future harm.

Any six sigma green/black/master black belts/champions or executive leaders out there who wish to identify themselves and comment?

This is GM'S latest comment on the subject.

I think you are over thinking what is going on here. These ignition switches are not failing. They are working as designed. I am an industrial engineer with background in quality control. Not only are these switches not failing, they all left the manufacturing environment passing inspection because they were built to spec. After seeing the videos of how easy it is to turn off the ignition, I now am surprised more deaths and injuries haven't been reported.

 

[jejeosborne]

I don't understand...even with the Toyota sticking throttles......if you can't control a vehicle just because the engine shut off, or you have no power steering or brakes, you should turn in your licence and stay home.
I've blown steer tires off big rigs...loaded to 140,000 pounds, in a corner at 65 mph, hood and driver side fuel tank blown off, and I just pulled off to the shoulder and stopped. No episode what so ever.
Some people just shouldn't drive.

If anyone should be sued and out of business it should be Ford for their Powerstrokes.

You could have done all that with the engine shutting off too? How do we know some of these accidents didn't happen during a time of emergency and having the engine turn off was the straw that broke the camels back?
Let me give you a possible scenario:
You are driving along and another driver veers into your lane. You take immediate action and decide to drive through the rough grassy median to avoid a collision. The bumpy surface bounces your key ring and turns off the ignition while you are trying to straighten out your skidding car through the grass. Your lack of power steering has slowed the required need to quickly steer into the skid. You strike an object and your airbags don't deploy because your ignition is off. Your loved one (choose your favorite) is killed but would have survived had the air bag deployed. Would you replace that vehicle with another car with the same known design (and get a gym membership to strengthen your core and arms so this won't happen again) or be pissed off and avoid that design and purchase something different?

 

[Gary Fowler]

Folks are quick to jump GM for being negligent when I suspect that much of the fault with fatalities is with the driver failing to react to a simple emergency situation or pushing the envelope with excessive speed being the real culprit.

Speaking of negligence in manufacturing, anyone see the documentary on the Remington 700 rifle that fires when unloading. One has to push the safety off in order to unload the gun and this sometimes cause the gun to fire without pulling the trigger. Remington has known about it since first months of manufacturing as the designer came up with a fix that would cost $.05 per unit to install. Remington said that it was too costly and continued to KNOWLINGLY manufacture them with the defective safety. Even after settling several lawsuits where deaths have occurred due to this, they continued to manufacture it up until a few year ago when they finally put in a new safety system. NOW THAT IS NEGLIGENCE TO THE NTH DEGREE. To this day, Remington refuses to acknowledge that there is a problem with the gun. Today after MILLIONS of these rifles have been made, it would bankrupt the company to make a recall on these guns and only refer to owners that they will put in a new trigger system for owners if they will ship their guns to the manufacturer and wait 6 months or more for them to fix them AND the owner has to pay for the repair.

Engineers don't always get it right with the specifications on every item which is why they sometimes have to recall some manufactured items. Not every recall is a life threatening situation either. In todays world, no one thinks of themselves as being responsible for anything and want to sue, sue, sue for their mistakes. No one can make an idiot proof machine, but todays society assumes that anything for sale should be safe for any idiot to use. Anyone recall the issue where a woman put her new RV on "cruise" and went back to make a sandwich which off course lead to a crash which then made manufacturers put a warning in the operators manual to explain how it doesn't drive itself. What kind of idiot thinks cruise controls makes a vehicle drive itself, but I am sure they sued the company (might even have got some money from it).

It is just sad to see that our society in the last few decades has become a nation of "not my fault" when any thing happens.

 

[Kyle_in_Tex]

All this bashing. Do any of you think that only GM can cover up?
Ford Pinto. enough said.

If those who are bashing had the time to pick the brains of any brand's service adviser, you'll find that every brand has their problems. Even Honda, Toyota, Lexus, and KUBOTA.

 

[HHR]

You could have done all that with the engine shutting off too? How do we know some of these accidents didn't happen during a time of emergency and having the engine turn off was the straw that broke the camels back? Let me give you a possible scenario: You are driving along and another driver veers into your lane. You take immediate action and decide to drive through the rough grassy median to avoid a collision. The bumpy surface bounces your key ring and turns off the ignition while you are trying to straighten out your skidding car through the grass. Your lack of power steering has slowed the required need to quickly steer into the skid. You strike an object and your airbags don't deploy because your ignition is off. Your loved one (choose your favorite) is killed but would have survived had the air bag deployed. Would you replace that vehicle with another car with the same known design (and get a gym membership to strengthen your core and arms so this won't happen again) or be pissed off and avoid that design and purchase something different?

Since when did manufacturers tie the airbags to the ignition switch? Back in the 90s, all the Ford vehicles had a good sized capacitor built into the airbag module that would provide power to the airbags in the event that a battery cable was severed etc.

 

[MikePA]

Another scenario could be a Klingon starship is chasing you, they've turned on their tractor beam, your GM vehicle starts to levitate, shaking your vehicle and your keychain, to which you've attached three phasers and a tricorder, and your engine shuts off. You can't maneuver, and poof, you're a prisoner and off to planet Boreth.

Point? No one on TBN knows what the scenarios associated with the accidents were so no one knows if they were recoverable.

And airbags work with the ignition off.

 

[3930dave]

Folks are quick to jump GM for being negligent when I suspect that much of the fault with fatalities is with the driver failing to react to a simple emergency situation or pushing the envelope with excessive speed being the real culprit.

Speaking of negligence in manufacturing, anyone see the documentary on the Remington 700 rifle that fires when unloading. One has to push the safety off in order to unload the gun and this sometimes cause the gun to fire without pulling the trigger. Remington has known about it since first months of manufacturing as the designer came up with a fix that would cost $.05 per unit to install. Remington said that it was too costly and continued to KNOWLINGLY manufacture them with the defective safety. Even after settling several lawsuits where deaths have occurred due to this, they continued to manufacture it up until a few year ago when they finally put in a new safety system. NOW THAT IS NEGLIGENCE TO THE NTH DEGREE. To this day, Remington refuses to acknowledge that there is a problem with the gun. Today after MILLIONS of these rifles have been made, it would bankrupt the company to make a recall on these guns and only refer to owners that they will put in a new trigger system for owners if they will ship their guns to the manufacturer and wait 6 months or more for them to fix them AND the owner has to pay for the repair.

Engineers don't always get it right with the specifications on every item which is why they sometimes have to recall some manufactured items. Not every recall is a life threatening situation either. In todays world, no one thinks of themselves as being responsible for anything and want to sue, sue, sue for their mistakes. No one can make an idiot proof machine, but todays society assumes that anything for sale should be safe for any idiot to use. Anyone recall the issue where a woman put her new RV on "cruise" and went back to make a sandwich which off course lead to a crash which then made manufacturers put a warning in the operators manual to explain how it doesn't drive itself. What kind of idiot thinks cruise controls makes a vehicle drive itself, but I am sure they sued the company (might even have got some money from it).

It is just sad to see that our society in the last few decades has become a nation of "not my fault" when any thing happens.

I've seen recent interviews with that original designer of the gun. He started making the recommendation for re-design many decades ago (like before I was born).

Good example of corporations being run by bean-counters.

Other than Engineering not being able to out-muscle Finance (a common problem), the malaise at GM seems to have been deeper than that - another quote from the LA Times article:

"The report highlights a company that operated in silos," Barra said, "with a number of individuals seemingly looking for reasons not to act, instead of finding ways to protect our customers."

I also wonder why it's taken till now for these highly paid GM execs (present and past) to figure out what is going on (or not) within the divisions they are responsible for ?

Many drivers on the roads today need to improve their skills, attitude, and attention to what they are doing. Ownership needs to improve there too, not just with GM. That said, no, I would not want to be facing an emergency situation in a modern vehicle with most/all of the electronics etc. disabled.

Rgds, D.

 

[jejeosborne]

Folks are quick to jump GM for being negligent when I suspect that much of the fault with fatalities is with the driver failing to react to a simple emergency situation or pushing the envelope with excessive speed being the real culprit.

Speaking of negligence in manufacturing, anyone see the documentary on the Remington 700 rifle that fires when unloading. One has to push the safety off in order to unload the gun and this sometimes cause the gun to fire without pulling the trigger. Remington has known about it since first months of manufacturing as the designer came up with a fix that would cost $.05 per unit to install. Remington said that it was too costly and continued to KNOWLINGLY manufacture them with the defective safety. Even after settling several lawsuits where deaths have occurred due to this, they continued to manufacture it up until a few year ago when they finally put in a new safety system. NOW THAT IS NEGLIGENCE TO THE NTH DEGREE. To this day, Remington refuses to acknowledge that there is a problem with the gun. Today after MILLIONS of these rifles have been made, it would bankrupt the company to make a recall on these guns and only refer to owners that they will put in a new trigger system for owners if they will ship their guns to the manufacturer and wait 6 months or more for them to fix them AND the owner has to pay for the repair.

Engineers don't always get it right with the specifications on every item which is why they sometimes have to recall some manufactured items. Not every recall is a life threatening situation either. In todays world, no one thinks of themselves as being responsible for anything and want to sue, sue, sue for their mistakes. No one can make an idiot proof machine, but todays society assumes that anything for sale should be safe for any idiot to use. Anyone recall the issue where a woman put her new RV on "cruise" and went back to make a sandwich which off course lead to a crash which then made manufacturers put a warning in the operators manual to explain how it doesn't drive itself. What kind of idiot thinks cruise controls makes a vehicle drive itself, but I am sure they sued the company (might even have got some money from it).

It is just sad to see that our society in the last few decades has become a nation of "not my fault" when any thing happens.

So if you blame the driver for the fatalities in the car for not being skilled, shouldn't you also blame the gun handler for those fatalities as well. I was taught to handle all guns as ready to fire.

 

[jejeosborne]

Since when did manufacturers tie the airbags to the ignition switch? Back in the 90s, All the Ford vehicles had a good sized capacitor built into the airbag module that would provide power to the airbags in the event that a battery cable was severed etc.

Another scenario could be a Klingon starship is chasing you, they've turned on their tractor beam, your GM vehicle starts to levitate, shaking your vehicle and your keychain, to which you've attached three phasers and a tricorder, and your engine shuts off. You can't maneuver, and poof, you're a prisoner and off to planet Boreth.

Point? No one on TBN knows what the scenarios associated with the accidents were so no one knows if they were recoverable.

And airbags work with the ignition off.

Just to clarify, that is part of the reason for this lawsuit. Airbags will NOT work with ignition turned off on these vehicles.

 

[Paystar]

Chris, I knew you couldn't stay out of this one.LOLOLOLLO

Spoken like a person that is a expert at everything.

No, just at driving.

 

[coobie]

Well big DO-DO hit the fan today.It seems there is a Big recall notice for defective airbags in BMW,Ford,Toyota, Honda,Crysler,Nissan and Mazda cars and trucks.My goodness what is a person to do now?This recall covers just about every major car company.Were running out of car companies to sue.I bet the lawyers are licking there chops though?All this time I thought GM was the only company making crappy cars & trucks?I am happy and sad at the same time I sold the ford in the pic but bought another ford truck.Dang the luck,LOL.

 

[Kyle_in_Tex]

yah, they should all be sued into the ground and then we can go back to Conestoga wagons.

 

[coobie]

yah, they should all be sued into the ground and then we can go back to Conestoga wagons.

I am counting on my amish neighbors covered carriage if all heck breaks loose,heck he even has a heater in his.

 

[Pixguy]

I heard this am that the same company in Japan made all the air bags but no deaths were credited to the defective air bags.

The auto makers wouldn't lie would they?

 

[DarkBlack]

The great "It's somebody else's fault society" we have here. I certainly wasn't raised this way. I think it small, and shameful.

 

[rmk700]

Well big DO-DO hit the fan today.It seems there is a Big recall notice for defective airbags in BMW,Ford,Toyota, Honda,Crysler,Nissan and Mazda cars and trucks.My goodness what is a person to do now?This recall covers just about every major car company.Were running out of car companies to sue.I bet the lawyers are licking there chops though?All this time I thought GM was the only company making crappy cars & trucks?I am happy and sad at the same time I sold the ford in the pic but bought another ford truck.Dang the luck,LOL.

Yes, all manufactures are doomed and the cause.... The more safety features added = more safety features to malfunction = more law suites for sue happy greeds.
The governments planning on mandating backup camera's (that will likely malfunction) in all vehicles by 2018.

Which president said it? "We will bankrupt ourselves in the vain search for absolute safety".