Grinding Sound !! - Dealer Says NORMAL

[RickB]

If the main hydraulic filter and charge pressure filter have not been changed, this should be done under warranty prior to anyone expending time and effort in any other direction including contacting the NH service rep. A filter change would be step two in my troubleshooting flow chart right after checking the oil quantity.

I seriously doubt your operating style has damaged the hydro in 40 hours, but I can assure you it will shorten the life of a normally functioning hydroststic transmission via excessive heat buildup within the rotating group. Shallow swashplate angle = low oil flow = higher system pressures = higher component and oil temps for any given job as compared to a higher final drive ratio and steeper swashplate angle to achieve the same ground speed. It is as simple as that. The possibility does exist that the 'grinding' noise is relief valve chatter which could be caused by your operating style. It is impossible to make that determination from where I sit.

The body of experience you describe can be matched by many of us regulars here. There is a complete void of mention of operating anything with a hydrostatic transmission other than your TC. You may choose not to acknowledge the possibility of certain beneficial operation practices unique to this type of driveline, but they exist, and you should adopt them.

 

[jinman]

If the main hydraulic filter and charge pressure filter have not been changed, this should be done under warranty prior to anyone expending time and effort in any other direction including contacting the NH service rep. A filter change would be step two in my troubleshooting flow chart right after checking the oil quantity.

Rick, in the first post, MoyockHeel said that his dealer had changed both the hydraulic filter and fluid in addition to engine oil and filter because he took so long to replace the instrument panel and repair the cruise control. He didn't say the charge pump filter was changed, but that would not cause the poor operation of the main hydraulic system. I guess it might be questionable as to whether the dealer actually changed both the fluid and filter, but I think you have to at least trust him to do that. If you don't, you need to mark the existing filter some way so you know it has or has not been changed. I always scratch the current hour meter reading into mine so I know when it's time to change them at a glance.

 

[RickB]

Thanks, Jim. I thought I re-read the first post carefully, but must have missed the filter change.

 

[MoyockHeel]

Thanks for the input guys. Sorry for being touchy. I'm spending way too much time trying to get this resolved, but I ain't giving up. I am frustrated about it, that's for sure. To me, it is a whole lot of money. Two years of education costs for my children’s college, a pretty nice boat, a new car, and a myriad other ways to look at it.

KLM / farmacist, I'm not sure about the range being wrong. The dealer indicates there is nothing wrong with the range I use. Does it say that I'm in the wrong range in the owner's manual? I've read it several times and maybe I missed it somewhere.

Here's more detail on my ground speed. I do operate the tractor in Hi/Rabbit when mowing the lawn and the grass is not overly high. I've kept the grass height low because I mow it so often trying to diagnose the noise, and it only makes the noise sporadically. The engine has never lugged, because I don't push the pedal all the way down. I imagine it would lug if I did. I mow in Hi/Rabbit because it takes 2-3 hours to mow the lawn as it is. If I mowed in Lo/Rabbit, or Hi/Turtle, my ground speed is considerably slower, and it would take probably 4-5 hours to mow the lawn. My previous Ford 650 would handle the job in 2-3 hours. I mistakenly posted I was mowing in 5th gear (road gear) with that tractor, and actually it was 4th. Sorry for the mistake.

Jim, the pedal stops are exactly where they were set upon receipt of the tractor. I'll look at its adjustment, but if there is a quick tip, I'll be happy to follow it. The owner's manual does not get into that adjustment.

As for grading, I grade in Hi/turtle, or Lo/rabbit, 4X4. The driveway is so hard, the blade will hardly gather any of the dirt, so it's not like I'm pulling a turn plow. After grading, I turn the blade around and scrape / drag the driveway in Hi/Rabbit, usually 4X4, but since there is little resistance, it could easily be done in 4X2, and I probably have. Dragging at a higher ground speed helps distribute the cast off material from the sides of the blade. I pull an old set of wire bed springs (fancy, huh?) behind the blade when I drag it. I have actually dragged it with a small JD lawn mower, so it's not a major load.

As for my experience level, no bragging, just pointing out that the tractors, vehicles, and equipment I've used have had many years of use, not mere hours, and they perform with no grating/roar that would embarass anyone. The befco mower is 20 years old, with only its second set of blades, that I do keep sharp, and original belt that has never even been adjusted. The mower has obviously not been overloaded, by speed or grass height, to the point where the belt has slipped, ANY. It has all the original wheels and spindles. If I was pulling it too fast, or abusing it in any way, there is no way it would last this long.

Page 2-7 of the owner's manual says to avoid lugging the engine. (Break-in procedures. I'm under 50 hrs, still.) I have never lugged the engine. I have never pulled anything heavy enough to cause the tractor to not respond to pedal push or engine throttle increase. It says to use the lower gear ratios when pulling heavy loads and avoid continuous operation at constant engine speeds. I've done that. It further says, "operating the tractor in low gear with a light load and high engine speed wastes fuel."

I have caused the wheels to spin when loading the FEL. I have stepped on the differential lock to increase traction when the wheels spun. I have pulled on a fairly large tree stump, and the wheels spun a little. I was not in Hi/rabbit for that. The FEL could easily roll this stump, although I did not try picking it up, but believe it would have. If this tractor can't handle me, it is not worthy of being used by any commercial operations. I know a guy that has two of them he uses in his landscaping/bushogging business. His employees do not baby them. They do not make this noise.

Now back to the noise. I put the mower back on the tractor yesterday. Before doing so, I rotated the MFD cover, which until visiting the dealer on Thursday, I did not realize would move. The tractor did not make the noise after using it for about an hour. I did not spray the ends of the cover with any lubricant, but will try that today. Is that cover designed to partially rotate? It only goes around so far before hitting stops, when the engine is not running. Of course I haven't watched it while operating, because I can't hang over the side when driving, although I tried. I'll get my daughter to drive it today to see if it rotates when operating. If there is something inside on the shaft that would contact this cover, it may be the source of the noise...but why it's intermittent I cannot understand. The noise is not normal. And, it does not explain the whole 3PH noise/sluggishness issue.

The NH rep is to visit on 12/21. Now, my wife has gotten a tape stuck in my video recorder, so the only VCR copy I have is at the dealer! What a cluster. I'll see if the dealer can give me that copy back, while trying to get the tape out of the recorder. (trouble shooting on that says to make sure it has power. It does. The tape door is stuck partially open, like the tape was put in upside down, etc.) GEEZ.

I tried and thought the above was posted earlier today, but it evidently didn't get there. I just got in from using the tractor to move a little dirt, and do some more unecessary mowing. It's December. I lubed the MFD shaft cover, and thought that was it, with the tininess of the material, I could imagine a noise resonating from it.

I had traveled about 1/2 mile to a dirt pile, in Hi/rabbit. I shifted to 4X4, Lo/turtle and lo/rabbit to load the FEL. I had about a half bucket of dirt in the bucket, and started toward home, in an open field. I was in Hi range now, and I shifted up to rabbit, in 4X4. The noise happened. For about 20 seconds, stopped, and then happened again, before I got to the yard. Doesn't exclude the MFD cover, but I don't understand how this can abruptly start and stop.

I have used HST in a International Combine. It was use of it that convinced me to get the DA.

Thanks for all the input. With this expertise, we'll get it straight, and I'll be forever grateful. Keep 'em coming. I really do appreciate it.

 

[farmacist]

To Moyockheel; Thanks for your detailed input. I am sure that you are not "lugging down the motor". I just wonder if the hydro transmission is lugging down too much. Would you do me a favor? Please try to MAKE it make the noise in Hi/Turtle with your pedal to the metal. We will solve this.....Thanks, Frank

 

[MoyockHeel]

I tried to use all the different ranges today, and the noise happened in 4X4 hi/rabbit for the first time. I mowed in Hi/turtle 4X2 for about 30 minutes, but no noise occurred. It is substantially slower. I plan on using it again tomorrow, and will stay out of Hi/rabbit. I've used almost two tanks of fuel (~$100 worth) screwing with this, doing stuff that my wife has to be wondering about. Tomorrow I'm going to pull out some stuff from the flower bed. I'm sure that will be popular. I'll run the tractor in Hi/turtle, most of the time, after a fuel run. Heck, I might drive the tractor to the store to get it filled. It's about 4 miles. I'll use Hi/turtle only, though.

 

[Doc_Bob]

Hi/Hi is a road gear.
Bob

 

[Doc_Bob]

. I've used almost two tanks of fuel (~$100 worth) screwing with this, doing stuff that my wife has to be wondering about.

100 dollars!!!!!! I assume you have been doing something fun?
Bob

 

[Dusty]

Can't help with the tractor problem, but as for the VCR, try unplugging it and then plug it back in. This has happened to my VCR a few times, and this is how I clear the "trouble". It is a cheap fix if it works. Good luck with your tractor. I know how frustrating these type of problems are.
Dusty

 

[JonL]

Sorry to hear about your trouble. It seems like your dealer is not very customer driven. Most of us have dealers that work very hard to resolve our problems. You have handled everything very well to this point. It is very important that you give NH a chance to resolve your problem. Most likely it will be taken care of without issue. NH is my favorite company to deal with. The NH reps, district reps, and corporate staff are all very approachable and very customer oriented. You have hung in there this long. Give NH a chance to make it right.

 

[Soundguy]

The old Ford 650 probably was 25 hp. .

More like about 33 pto hp. That 25 hp is the drawbar hp.

Soundguy

 

[MoyockHeel]

Update - Summarized. NH rep visited. The tractor's lift systems (3PH and FEL) made a terrible whining noise, upon start-up, with him and a service tech feeling under it, etc., and while he was operating it. He experienced the grinding noise, 1-2 min. after he started driving the tractor. Two short grinds, then one longer one. He operated the tractor for 30-45 min. It did not make the noise again. (This follows a pattern previously noticed and captured on tape. If it makes a lift noise and lifts slowly, the grinding noise will occur shortly afterward. If the lifts operate ok at start up, then the grinding noise will occur after an extended period of operation.)

NH rep wants to change to a cold weather fluid. He indicated he didn't hear the noise on the tape, which I have now shown to several people, all of which have no problem hearing the noise. I don't know why thinking a cold weather fluid will cure the problem. It started making the noise in July in NC, in 90-95 degree weather.

The tractor has now made the noise in Hi/turtle, Hi/Rabbit,, 4X2, and 4X4, in reverse and in forward. It made the noise when I pedaled from forward to reverse. I have not spent time enough in Lo/turtle and Lo/Rabbit, yet.

As for the $100 worth of fuel. Diesel cost $2.70 here, two tanks is 26 gallons, do the math, it knocks out a big part of $100 when you consider the cost of retrieving the fuel, etc. There is absolutely no fun in this process, and ther's no doubt that I've spent that much on trying to diagnose the noise. I'd estimate almost one-half of the 40 hours on the tractor have been spent trying to get the noise on tape, mowing grass that doesn't need mowing, riding long distnaces to retrieve buckets of dirt.

The old tractor had no where near 30 HP when I had it. It may have had that brand new, but it was well used when I got it and the cylinder compression was nil when I got rid of it.

 

[Doc_Bob]

As for the $100 worth of fuel. Diesel cost $2.70 here, two tanks is 26 gallons, do the math, it knocks out a big part of $100 when you consider the cost of retrieving the fuel, etc. There is absolutely no fun in this process, .

Understood.
Bob

 

[Dusty]

.........NH rep wants to change to a cold weather fluid. He indicated he didn't hear the noise on the tape, which I have now shown to several people, all of which have no problem hearing the noise. I don't know why thinking a cold weather fluid will cure the problem. It started making the noise in July in NC, in 90-95 degree weather.

He can't hear it on the tape, because he doesn't want to hear it. He wants to change the oil, because he has no idea what is wrong with the tractor. If he changes it to a cold weather fluid, ask him what he is going to do with it next summer when warm weather comes back. I would start documenting everything, because to me, the NH rep sounds more like a snake oil salesman, than an experienced technical representative of the company. I would also push the problem further up the line to the company. He is hoping to mask the problem, not resolve it. I would be pushing for assurances in writing that he acknowledges that there is a problem, and that they will resolve the problem, no matter how long it takes. My guess is he is hoping to get it quiet enough for the tractor to run out of warranty, and then it will be your problem.
Dusty

 

[MoyockHeel]

Dusty, I have a statement signed by the dealer service rep. It says:"This document is to be placed in the permanent file for this tractor at XXX XXX, Inc. This is to document the defect complaints listed below, prior to expiration of the warranty. Additionally, a video tape documenting the issues was submitted." I signed/dated a copy, and the dealer service rep signed/dated a copy. He kept one and I have one. The document is a log of most everything that has happened, including phone conversations, dates, and hours on the tractor when the events occurred.

I am willing to be patient, but after originally asking for the tractor to be fixed, I have changed my position. I have asked for the tractor to be replaced, with a new one, one that is not exhibiting the noises and lift problems I am seeing. (The NH rep attempted to demonstrate that the noise was normal by setting the parking brake and then pushing the forward pedal on a tractor that was on the dealer lot. The noise it made was similar, but not exactly like the grinding I hear. He intimated that the noise was due to the cruise control magnet vibrating, due to the vibration in the hydraulic system vibrating, and therefore nromal.) I found it peculiar that my tractor did not make the noise when he attempted the same procedure on mine. I told him when they replaced my tractor, I would not accept the one on the lot that had made that noise, and will test for it before I accept another tractor.

I fully do not expect the change in fluid to make any difference. I'll let them do it, but if there are future hydraulic system issues, beyond warranty expiration, I have asked that those items be repaired, essentially extending the warranty, forever... Beyond continuing to document, etc., do you have any other ideas that I can consider to help get a new tractor? I beleive there is a defect in this tractor's hydraulic pump or motor. I have a hard time accepting this tractor being split apart to repair/renew those items and feeling confident the tractor will be as good as a new one from the factory. The noise started at 14.4 hours. The NH rep agreed there was no indication of abuse on my part.

I guess I'll have to request a change back to the higher temperature fluid when March rolls around....

Thanks for your input.

 

[IH3444]

I'm very sorry to read about this problem with the whinning hydrotransmission. I would have thought that the factory rep would have just said, yep, there is a unatural noise from the trans, we seldom if ever hear that, we will swap out the tractor, or even just a new hydro unit with your. We want our customers happy, and not posting on a tractor web about our possible failures. The "cold weather" fluid I'm sure is their either synthetic, or semi-synthetic fluid which is known to quiet down the hydro unit whines. If you search for post about the owners who changed the fliud in their hydro tractors to amsoil full synthetic fluid, one of the improvements they state is usually less hydro noise. It is possible that this noise could just be a noise and the machine go on for 30 years with it, it's just that for piece of mind I understand your concern. Documenting is wise, but getting a dealer to then act upon it is another thing. There are higher authorities that you can bring this issue to, and hopefully they can assist you in resolving this with either your dealer or NH. I fell that both the dealer and the NH rep is just biding time until the machine is out of warrenty. The best of luck to you and your tractor, the NHs are great machines, but a hydro with grinding noise is a real concern.

 

[MoyockHeel]

Thanks IH. I am fine with the whining noise that the HST makes. The noises I am talking about make that whine sound like sweet music. The 3PH and FEL lifts make a HOOOOONKing, deeper "whine", especially in the area of the HST control pedals, when the lift control levers are manipulated (with fairly severe shaking/vibration that is visible on the triangular hazard warning sign on the back of the tractor as it waves back and forth!) until the fluid warms up. There is also a ringing/jingling noise on the right lower side, that is noticeable when the lift noise is heard. It too subsides when the fluid warms up. The grinding noise is just like if you lowered your grader blade on a paved surface and proceeded to try to take a layer of it off, at a fast pace. It's intermittent, and unpredictable. Thanks for your input.

 

[dqdave1]

Did I read in a prevous post that CNH was training a new rep for your area. If so; ask for another rep with experience to come and look. Does the "lemon" law apply? It might be worth a trip to an attorney to review what you have done; what the dealer has done and what your options are. Sometimes, a letter from council helps speed up remedies.

 

[IH3444]

There is no noise with my three point hitch on my TC48. It is almost silent, so this tells me that something might be amiss with yours. Have you looked into any type off lemon laws in your state, or thought to write to your better bussiness bureau.If that grinding sound is like a blade onto gravel, that is without question unacceptable, and the dealer rep should instruct the dealer to swap out that hydro trans for another. I wouldn't be worried about the motor-trans split at a dealer. Should be as good as new. That grinding is way overboard..........I'm really disappointed in the NH rep.

 

[Dusty]

Before you can get another tractor, I believe that you have to at least allow them to try the fix the machine. Each time that they try and fail, makes your request for a replacement stronger. Most lemon laws require at least 3 tries to remedy the problem. I also don't believe that tractors fall into the lemon law area in most states. If you financed the machine, you might have some recourse through that avenue. I don't know exactly where to find the reference, but if you have financed it, you can stop making payments if the machine is defective, until it is repaired. This might be federal law, or it might have been state law. I remember hearing about it, but it was a while ago and I don't remember the details. If it is financed, then ask the lien holder. I believe that they have to be honest with you, even if they might not like the outcome of the conversation.
Dusty