Help with standby generator as prime utility provider

sfloggie · Jun 13, 2012

I know I am causing my own problem, but hoping someone can help me overcome!

We have no utility provided electricity on our land and desire none due slightly to cost, but mainly because we would have to deed a rather wide and long right of way to the utility company.

I had a Siemens (Generac) 14Kw (ASKN014RBS) generator installed to be run by propane under manual start. We had the building and lean to wired like a home with a breaker panel and the Siemens Automatic Transfer switch panel. We had to have the Transfer switch panel because the generator pulls the current to charge the battery through the Transfer switch. In our case when the generator is running it recharges.

Our problem is that the unit has a digital display and many functions that run 24/7as safety and maintenance checks. Thus when we are not at our land for several days the battery is completely drawn down. I brought a 5W Solar battery charger from Harbor Freight, not realizing it needed a diode or fuse to prevent the power provided by the solar panel from drawing back into the solar unit at night.

I have since ordered another panel with the diode that prevents the flow back.

My question: Could anyone provide a link to the generator wiring diagram and do you think we could disconnect the digital display and the functions? I have the Transfer Switch diagram URL.

That said, I worry that without the function checks, there may be a maintenance or safety issue and I would not know until it occurs. Voiding warranty is not an issue as Generac voided the warranty as soon as I put the generator in as it can not be the Prime utility provided.

Photos are attached. We use the generator for lighting, well, compressor, portable generator and future items such as a trailer. Thank you, Jim

E/S · Jun 13, 2012

I probably can help as I lived off grid for 10 yrs, but I have a question first.
Is the battery charging for the generator starter / monitor or storage for a power inverter ?

E/S

Mickey_Fx · Jun 13, 2012

Don't know if I can help with your request but I do have a couple questions/comments.

Before doing much with the small solar panel, I'd measure what the current draw is on the battery when the genset is shut down. Only that way will you know how much power must be replaced to keep up with the current draw.

Secondly, what do you intend to do with the small panel shown in the first pic? Surely you don't intend to leave it where it is. Also something need to be done to address the problem of snow in the winter.

Lastly, don't know how large your propane tank is and it does look like you're pulling off the top of the tank. The rate that propane can vaporize is dependent on temp and surface area of the liquid propane. From data I saw on the Yanmar site, a 450 gal tank can just barely handle a 7kw genset @ 20ｰ F. Better approach is to pull the propane off a wet leg and have the propane vaporized in the genset enclosure where it is a lot warmer.

sfloggie · Jun 13, 2012

ES and Mickey.

Glad you both answered. I had studied inverters and propane vaporization when I was trying to decide what to do for power. However, I totally forgot about both when I had everything installed.

ES, there is no inverter, the battery is strictly charging for the generator/monitor.

ES and Mickey. I should have thought about it, but I did not check to see what the monitor function power draw is. I had hoped getting the small 5W Solar panel would keep the battery with a balanced charged. I ordered another with a diode to replace the one on the ground. I understand that at night I could loose the solar power provided without a diode to prevent the flow back.
I put the panel where it is until I could mount it, or another one, perpendicular to the sun. The electrician connected the leads from the panel direct to the generator battery.

The propane tank is a 350 gal tank and they put 285 gallons in the tank. Local code said the tank had to be where it is (10 feet from the generator). I see Mickey's point about the propane and solar panel, plus ES, what I think you are getting to, which is no inverter.

After seeing ES's post I reviewed a solar site again and read the following.
"Unless you plan on using battery power for everything, you will need a Power Inverter. Since the majority of modern conveniences all run on 120 volts AC, the Power Inverter will be the heart of your Solar Energy System. It not only converts the low voltage DC to the 120 volts AC that runs most appliances, but also can charge the batteries if connected to the utility grid or a AC Generator as in the case of a totally independent stand-alone solar power system."

So I am at a loss right (mainly because your questions made me see the holes in my plans) now as all of this is new to me. I had hoped the company I hired to put everything in would know what to do. However; they did say this is the first time they put a standby generator in where there was no grid.

I planned on enclosing the propane tank with a roof and shelter plus a roof for the generator enclosure before cold sets in.

Thank you for the questions and comments.

woodlandfarms · Jun 13, 2012

here is another question. You don't want public power because they want an easement. Could you run your own cable to the edge of your property,and then have them hook you up there? I know jack about all of this so take me ignorance with a grain of salt.

RadarTech · Jun 13, 2012

woodlandfarms said:
here is another question. You don't want public power because they want an easement. Could you run your own cable to the edge of your property,and then have them hook you up there? I know jack about all of this so take me ignorance with a grain of salt.

I had a friend do that some years ago..
It was in Georgia in a rural area and he has to have a small little building o mount the meter on.
Cost him like $7k to do it. I think the largest expense was the 00 cable he ran.
And he rented a ditch witch and did it all himself but the utility wanted to inspect it...
It was for snapping shoals emc if I remember right....
The biggest worry he had was voltage drop over distance and the step up, down he had to deal with.....

Little_Grizzly · Jun 13, 2012

You don't need an inverter unless you are trying to run your house from a battery. In your case you just have a little starter battery for the genset and the solar panel you bought will be fine. By the way you could also have added a diode to your first panel instead of buying a whole new panel but either way you should be good.

Steave · Jun 13, 2012

If you are not on the grid I don't understand why you need a transfer switch. You said it was for the battery charging circuit. Couldn't you just hook up the battery charging circuit to a breaker? When the generator is on the battery would be charging. As far as the digital readout goes it's for the transfer switch that I don't thing you really need since you start your generator manually. It's not monitoring anything if the generator is not running except the state of your starting battery which it will tell you its dead after it runs it down. I may missing the whole concept here so let me know your thoughts on the transfer switch.

jmanatee2 · Jun 14, 2012

As far as I know the only thing the monitor system does when the genny isnt running is auto start it every 7 days..... They do this because as backup power it might go years without running, not good for an engine.

Not sure how often you are there but if you are there every month or two, running it you shouldnt need to run it every 7 days.

My guardian has two small fuses on the panel that can be pulled to kill all power to the electronics.

Or you could just disconnect the battery when you are not there.

JMHO

E/S · Jun 14, 2012

If all your doing is starting the unit daily for power, let the charging circuit on the gen. set take care of the battery.
If your only starting it occasionally, set the exerciser timer for weekly for 2 hrs. and let it run.

E/S

edlegault · Jun 14, 2012

Install a switch on the power lead to the display to cut power off to it when you are not there.

sfloggie · Jun 14, 2012

Thanks for all of the comments. I will set with my brother in law Saturday and show him your thoughts. He is a nuclear engineer who never stopped using a slide rule as he hates computers! That said, I will try to answer a few questions not ignoring any comment you made, just noting a few things.

1. I thought about disconnecting the battery, and should have done so. The reason I did not was because my wife goes to the land several times a week and hates to "hassle" though things such as reconnecting a battery. I am only there weekends due to work. But disconnection would probably work.

2. The comments on the solar panel and Transfer Switch were thoughtful and helpful. Initially I did not have the Transfer Switch installed as it was more for a building on a grid (to me). However; the electrician called after generator and panel installation. He said this generator was a newer model noting the battery had to charge through a Transfer Switch. So he installed it for free as he said it was his error. And he put in a new battery for free. Still died in seven days when we did not visit the land due to weather.

3. The solar comments were also helpful. I am flailing in this area, but hoped it would work. I did feel great to see the use of the Sun when I have never done so. Will keep trying.

4. In planning what to do for power, we did look at options other than the standby generator. We had been using an electric start portable generator for over a year, but there were times it would not start and my wife had to crank it with a pull cord. She had a kidney removed due to cancer and it has left her too weak to do so.
- First we were going to have the utility run a cable from a transformer on my neighbors land 15' to a 400AMP meter box on my land. Then I was going to have a company run a cable to our building and garden. This is 1800' and no electrical company would touch it. All said they had never run this far and the cable would have to be huge due to power drop. Also the utility said the closest location they had to support a cable of that size was 3 miles away.
- So, I went back to the utility and asked if they would run the cable from the neighbor's transformer 1800' to our building and put the meter there. They could do so, but the cost was huge and they wanted an 1800'x50' deeded right of way. I was also going to have to clear a route through woods for that 1800' clearing roots in a ten foot path and then trenching the whole route. They wanted over $16000 to run the cable and set up the meter box. Plus I had the cost for what is noted in this paragraph.
- Then I got the idea of a standby generator because a neighbor said the electricity was always going off for hours on end. As Paul Harvey said.."and that is the rest of the story".

I really appreciate you guy's comments and will work this out with my brother in laws in concert with your thoughts. If you were close I would share our garden with you!

Best to you,

Jim

jonyyuma · Jun 14, 2012

Make it easy on the wife and put in a battery disconnect switch..they make all sizes for trucks and boats..

Mickey_Fx · Jun 14, 2012

sfloggie said:
ES and Mickey.Glad you both answered. I had studied inverters and propane vaporization when I was trying to decide what to do for power. However, I totally forgot about both when I had everything installed.ES, there is no inverter, the battery is strictly charging for the generator/monitor. ES and Mickey. I should have thought about it, but I did not check to see what the monitor function power draw is. I had hoped getting the small 5W Solar panel would keep the battery with a balanced charged. I ordered another with a diode to replace the one on the ground. I understand that at night I could loose the solar power provided without a diode to prevent the flow back.I put the panel where it is until I could mount it, or another one, perpendicular to the sun. The electrician connected the leads from the panel direct to the generator battery.The propane tank is a 350 gal tank and they put 285 gallons in the tank. Local code said the tank had to be where it is (10 feet from the generator). I see Mickey's point about the propane and solar panel, plus ES, what I think you are getting to, which is no inverter......So I am at a loss right (mainly because your questions made me see the holes in my plans) now as all of this is new to me. I had hoped the company I hired to put everything in would know what to do. However; they did say this is the first time they put a standby generator in where there was no grid. I planned on enclosing the propane tank with a roof and shelter plus a roof for the generator enclosure before cold sets in.Thank you for the questions and comments.

A couple more things I forgot regarding the solar panel. They are rated at peak power, full sun and panel pointed at the sun. Anything less than that, power will be lower. Your 5w panel can put out

sodamo · Jun 14, 2012

I have a diesel generator as backup to my solar power - we are completely off grid. This is a Chinese version, so documentation is appropriately thin.
My initial concern was the auto start feature, which the dealer assured me was built in. After setting it up, I too had a battery drain problem, the dealer assured me it had a built in trickle charger. I guess I wore out my welcome with dealer as he ceased communicating with me

I could never find it and installed and external charger. Still the Autostart perplexed me.
Finally, three years later and after going over the docs and visually mapping everything the umpteenth time it dawned on me. This unit was made to hook to the live side of the house via a transfer switch. So as long as their was utility power the battery would charge, loss of power would trigger the 240 relay and Autostart. Being off grid I had no transfer switch, my inverters perform that function.
I suspect you might have a similar situation with your battery charging.

David Sent from my iPad using TractorByNet

Steave · Jun 14, 2012

To make it easy on yourself do like jonyyuma said about the battery disconnect switch and maybe get a battery maintainer solar kit online about $50 for a 6 watt.

A 6 watt output is not going to give much charging power but does serve as a good way to keep batteries up. A good fully charged battery should keep enough power for several weeks to start your engine even without the solar maintainer.

You said your system is working now so a few tweaks is all you need.

Good luck with it and look forward to exchanging ideas in the future.

hr3 · Jun 14, 2012

sfloggie said:
I know I am causing my own problem, but hoping someone can help me overcome!

We have no utility provided electricity on our land and desire none due slightly to cost, but mainly because we would have to deed a rather wide and long right of way to the utility company.

I had a Siemens (Generac) 14Kw (ASKN014RBS) generator installed to be run by propane under manual start. We had the building and lean to wired like a home with a breaker panel and the Siemens Automatic Transfer switch panel. We had to have the Transfer switch panel because the generator pulls the current to charge the battery through the Transfer switch. In our case when the generator is running it recharges.

Our problem is that the unit has a digital display and many functions that run 24/7as safety and maintenance checks. Thus when we are not at our land for several days the battery is completely drawn down. I brought a 5W Solar battery charger from Harbor Freight, not realizing it needed a diode or fuse to prevent the power provided by the solar panel from drawing back into the solar unit at night.

I have since ordered another panel with the diode that prevents the flow back.

My question: Could anyone provide a link to the generator wiring diagram and do you think we could disconnect the digital display and the functions? I have the Transfer Switch diagram URL.

That said, I worry that without the function checks, there may be a maintenance or safety issue and I would not know until it occurs. Voiding warranty is not an issue as Generac voided the warranty as soon as I put the generator in as it can not be the Prime utility provided.

Photos are attached. We use the generator for lighting, well, compressor, portable generator and future items such as a trailer. Thank you, Jim

If this a real Generac and you have no warranty to worry about then here goes... Wire #13 that comes from the starter to the main controller is the 12v power wire.. If you install a switch on this no power will be lost from the battery.. It goes to ( J1 terminal 3)

Too late now but Generac does make an off grid gen set "with a warranty" NEW! ECOGEN - For Alternative Off-Grid Renewable Energy Applications

sfloggie · Jun 14, 2012

Wow..Thank you JR3! All of you added a lot of straight to the point info or asked the same. All are much appreciated. We will be working on this next week.

Thank you very much,

Jim