Wife has that too. Neat little thing. Scanned the electrical panel at this house, one was red hot... didn't even have a wire connected to it, marked "Spare".
Planing to bring that this weekend and see what it does up there...
Home electric problem / question help
- Thread starter teg
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Planing to bring that this weekend and see what it does up there...
pmsmechanic
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This is interesting. I'll learn something.
crackerjack222
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OP, did you say the "ground rod" was rebar? Located some distance from the breaker box? If so, I suggest you purchase and install (drive) a copper plated ground rod as close as practical to the breaker box and connect it with a 10ga copper wire.
That is what the electrician did, he did not tie into the re-bar. He used what I thought was marginal wire and sank 2 or 3 copper plated ground rods but they are mainly under our covered deck.
I asked if it would help to go ahead and tie in the re-bar also? but no one replied. :confused3:
I asked if it would help to go ahead and tie in the re-bar also? but no one replied. :confused3:
crackerjack222
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I misunderstood. I thought you were only tied into the rebar in the foundation.
I don't think it would hurt to tie into the rebar but I doubt it will solve your problem. I would try wetting/soaking the ground around the ground rods. How far from the box are the ground rods? Any idea what ga wire connecting them?
I had never seen the foundation rebar used as a ground until I had a vacation house built in NM about 15 years ago. the builder drove rebar into the ground then tied it into the foundation rebar, leaving a 6" stub outside the concrete for the electrician to tie into. Seems to work ok.
I don't think it would hurt to tie into the rebar but I doubt it will solve your problem. I would try wetting/soaking the ground around the ground rods. How far from the box are the ground rods? Any idea what ga wire connecting them?
I had never seen the foundation rebar used as a ground until I had a vacation house built in NM about 15 years ago. the builder drove rebar into the ground then tied it into the foundation rebar, leaving a 6" stub outside the concrete for the electrician to tie into. Seems to work ok.
20-25 feet.... I don't have a guess about the wire gauge. I'll most likely move the grounding rods over to the side of the house where it can be in moist soil.
Oldoak
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If your grounding rods are eight foot long, as per NEC, there is no pulling them out to move them. Just buy a couple of new ones. If they're shorter, that could be your ground fault problem.
The standard copper wire size should be no smaller than No. 6, and most codes recommend No. 4 wire. Where the ground rod is located far from the main electrical panel, thicker No. 3 wire may be required.
(This is pertaining to the wire from the electrical panel to the grounding rod.)
The standard copper wire size should be no smaller than No. 6, and most codes recommend No. 4 wire. Where the ground rod is located far from the main electrical panel, thicker No. 3 wire may be required.
(This is pertaining to the wire from the electrical panel to the grounding rod.)
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CobyRupert
Super Member
I can't see how having a poor ground would cause any breakers, even GFCI's, to trip. Can anyone explain?
If anything, having a poor ground connection or poor ground rods causes less current to flow in the event of a ground fault, where the earth is being used a the fault current path (instead of the green wire) back to the source transformer. (It also will cause a voltage imbalance problem between phases, but that's another issue)
In fact, in some industrial systems, the transformer, or neutral if you will, is not referenced / tied into ground, therefore there is no path back to the transformer in the event of a ground fault and the breaker doesn't trip.
If anything, having a poor ground connection or poor ground rods causes less current to flow in the event of a ground fault, where the earth is being used a the fault current path (instead of the green wire) back to the source transformer. (It also will cause a voltage imbalance problem between phases, but that's another issue)
In fact, in some industrial systems, the transformer, or neutral if you will, is not referenced / tied into ground, therefore there is no path back to the transformer in the event of a ground fault and the breaker doesn't trip.
LD1
Epic Contributor
Agree. The ground rod shouldn't have anything to do with the GFI.
GFI is simple. Current is measured on the outgoing black wire. It is again measured in the return neutral wire. If they are different by more than 5ma, it will cut power.
Ground has nothing to do with it.
Think of a garden hose looped out and back. And gpm relates to amps. If you put 10 gpm in one end of the hose, 10 gpm will come out the other. If not, there is a leak. If there are tees in this hose, with other sources for water to be introduced, or to leave the closed system, then gpm in won't equal gpm out.
You have neutral issues. Circuits are crossed. A neutral from something on breaker 3 might be tied to breaker 2. Given the flow another path to take. (Think tee in the hose analogy). The GFI is sensing it and tripping.
GFI is simple. Current is measured on the outgoing black wire. It is again measured in the return neutral wire. If they are different by more than 5ma, it will cut power.
Ground has nothing to do with it.
Think of a garden hose looped out and back. And gpm relates to amps. If you put 10 gpm in one end of the hose, 10 gpm will come out the other. If not, there is a leak. If there are tees in this hose, with other sources for water to be introduced, or to leave the closed system, then gpm in won't equal gpm out.
You have neutral issues. Circuits are crossed. A neutral from something on breaker 3 might be tied to breaker 2. Given the flow another path to take. (Think tee in the hose analogy). The GFI is sensing it and tripping.
teejk
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I'm not so sure that the "earth" leg has nothing to do with it but I'll take your word for it. Back to the OP...never mentioned (that I can see) is whether your construction was working for awhile and this problem is new. If so you might want to review any changes you have made. E.g. I recall some "chat" not long ago about LED lighting and GFCI. If this has been a problem from day one, then I dunno what to tell you.
CobyRupert
Super Member
He did say it is a new house w/ new 200 amp panel. What's probably significant is that the other circuits that trip have zero load (current) on them. So you probably don't get nuisance tripping until you turn on the that one load (washer?) whose neutral current is probably returning on multiple (white wire) paths through several different GFCI breakers and tripping them all.
I suspect that if he plugged in loads to the other circuits (that also trip) he'd get the same results.
QRTRHRS
Elite Member
Yes, the hospital rated GFCI was just on a sump pump.
Aside from an ancient degree in electronics, I have odds and ends of industrial electric classes in my background. I also used to help a friend out who had an HVAC/Electrical/Plumbing operation but I am not a licensed electrician. That's been over ten years as well but I do not recall seeing a well pump on anything other than a normal breaker.
Re: modulars. I have worked on some that were supposedly of a "better quality" where the wires in the outlet boxes were not twisted and the wire nuts hardly tight enough.
I am guessing that there are several "ganged" light switch boxes, probably 3 or 4 switches in each one. The supply to the various lights are from different breakers, but inside the ganged switch boxes ALL the whites (neutrals) are wire nutted together.
It has been from day one... It's only recently that we decided to tackle this problem.
So I think the next post below yours had summed it up pretty good... except the Washer may be a part of the problem. I think the main problem might be the Well Pump kicking on while the washer or dishwasher is on.
Again, old well pump. County has no record of it!! They file records under the person's name that paid for the permit. We have the last 6 people who own the property (back to 1968) and nothing was filed under their names.
I could see the well pump's wires might be grounded out and not returning to the electrical panel, could that cause the other breakers to pop. Again, those other breakers are not being used except for maybe a clock or nightlight.
I have a dash cam that I could mount to watch the electrical panel... would that tell us much? Watching the breakers trip?
Inferred camera and regular camera loaded to go to the farm...
Also, Thanks again for all the help...
Inferred camera and regular camera loaded to go to the farm...
Also, Thanks again for all the help...
robstaples
Gold Member
Teg, I'd suggest you pursue checking out the well as you mentioned. Buy or borrow two amp meter (clamp on) and first calibrate on same wire. Then one on each leg of pump. If one leg is going to ground with enough current to fool gfci, they won't match( maybe won't). Losses only occur while pump is running. You could resistance to ground check when de-energized( ohmmeter). You want the best meters you can borrow. Not HF freebies. If buying, I'd recommend flukes. My$.02
Added though, turn off well breaker. With all other breakers reset, turn on every combination of loads, and lights looking for bad neutral wiring. If nothing trips, do the same with the yard hose wide open to keep the pump running. Take notes!
Added though, turn off well breaker. With all other breakers reset, turn on every combination of loads, and lights looking for bad neutral wiring. If nothing trips, do the same with the yard hose wide open to keep the pump running. Take notes!
LD1
Epic Contributor
The only way the "earth leg" (ground) has anything to do with it is if that is where the currrent is leaking off to. Faulty outlet, nick in the hot or neutral touching the bare ground, etc.
The GFI is only measuring current on the neutral and hot wires. Thats it. If they differ by more than 5mA then it trips
oldpilgrim
Elite Member
Start simple and easy. Dump some water on the ground rod. Then you'll know one way or the other.
I will... knowing how the workers were that worked on the house... the only "electrical" work that they did was wire up the outside outlets. I briefly said one of them trip with any load... I'll take that one apart but IIRC it was a GFCI outlet - not sure where they are tied into the electrical panel.
LD1
Epic Contributor
The ground has nothing at all to do with the electrical circuit. In a properly wired system, the ground never does anything at all.remember the days of two-prong outlets?
The ground is only there as a safety device. It keeps all the metal (panel) at the same potential voltage as the ground (0v) if you have a short in one of the circuits, or a broke neutral between the meter and the panel, the ground is there to give the current a place to go rather than through you when you touch something metal in the circuit like a panel or light fixture. If they are indeed GFI breakers, that ground ain't the problem.
The ground is only there as a safety device. It keeps all the metal (panel) at the same potential voltage as the ground (0v) if you have a short in one of the circuits, or a broke neutral between the meter and the panel, the ground is there to give the current a place to go rather than through you when you touch something metal in the circuit like a panel or light fixture. If they are indeed GFI breakers, that ground ain't the problem.
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