Comparison Home Stand By Generators

[MossRoad]

And if "the offending" generator DOES back feed the utility's transformer and energizes the line laying in your neighbor's yard BEFORE the crew gets there to dead short the line, your neighbor's kids are dead.

Live with that.

Your statement is 100% correct.

Your neighbors' kids shouldn't be touching downed power lines regardless of if they are live, dead, unknown, etc... but kids will be kids, and, adults will be human. They make mistakes either by omission of steps in a procedure, safety precautions, or just plain ignorance (not knowing any better). I've seen several instances here locally of adults being electrocuted touching live wires. Several were by accident (ladders, TV towers, etc...) and several were intentionally picked up thinking they were dead or thinking they could move them. Sad all the way around.

 

[ultrarunner]

And if "the offending" generator DOES back feed the utility's transformer and energizes the line laying in your neighbor's yard BEFORE the crew gets there to dead short the line, your neighbor's kids are dead.

Live with that.

Your the first to reference neighbors... all prior posts were about utility workers.

 

[MossRoad]

This is what I was told my retired with 40 years lineman neighbor...

He said we NEVER assume any line is dead and we Dead Short to protect ourselves.

Many years ago I was working with an electrician on some metal boxes in our plant. I was sure I got bit when I touched the cabinet with my hand and my elbow was touching some angle iron mounting brackets. I felt the tingling. He laughed at me and told me to get back to work. I refused. He got mad, got me off the ladder, got up there and promptly got blasted off the ladder. I'd laugh hard if it wasn't so serious. We put a meter on it and the cabinet had voltage on it! Get between that and a good ground and, well, hope your insurance is paid up. Why didn't he believe me and check it when I said I felt something? Because he was sure I was mistaken. He didn't think it was possible, so he skipped investigation.

The point is, even professionals can have a lapse of concentration, or a lapse of good judgement. Even if you give someone a checklist to follow, with little check boxes to check, they'll skip steps, or do them in the wrong order. I have some photo processing machinery that has some very complicated cleaning procedures. I have an extremely long multi-page checklist that I developed over the years. We have 3 people that now do the cleaning. I give them the checklist. Probably 1 out of every 4 times they do the procedure, they skip a step even though they check it off. Crazy.

The goal is to make things as safe as possible. Something like shutting off the main power and all the breakers, plugging in a generator, starting up a generator, then turning on the breakers you want to power seems so simple to most of us. Yet, there's some of us that, say, after a long night of cleaning up storm damage, might have a brain freeze and do things in the wrong order.

A simple lockout device or extension cords are cheap, inexpensive ways to protect against that.

 

[buickanddeere]

Two possibles that likely would occur if anyone with a small generator ACCIDENTLY flipped on the main with the generator running while connected to the main panel in their home. The generator would most likely stall because it could not energize the distribution transformer. Another, if the generator could energize the transformer, the line crew dead short the lines from both directions prior to working on the damaged portion, again that would stall the offending generator.

Thus it's just fine to not use a break before make transfer switch? How about the vehicle in the ditch with power lines laying on it. Did the vehicle occupants short the lines for safety? After ice storms and wind storms with the lines down in people's yards.
Or is it a matter of pride? You don't want people telling you what should be done?

 

[K man]

After 224 post I think everyone gets the picture of safety when operating a generator etc etc etc. The original poster warriordba has probably gotten sick of hearing the same things over and over again and decided to step back. This subject is kind of getting boring if you know what I mean lol.
I still say a auto-switch propane standby generator is the best option out there for those who are old, handicapped or too out of shape to be running around with gasoline or diesel cans and extension cords especially during the winter. No offence but let's end this thread. Just saying

 

[hr3]

Thus it's just fine to not use a break before make transfer switch? How about the vehicle in the ditch with power lines laying on it. Did the vehicle occupants short the lines for safety? After ice storms and wind storms with the lines down in people's yards.
Or is it a matter of pride? You don't want people telling you what should be done?

With little load on the house side it is very easy to energize a transformer.. So don't believe it can't be done,,

 

[DarkBlack]

I've been back feeding my house with a double ended cord for longer than some of you are alive. And I even refueled every time during the outage a week ago while the generator was running (snow covered plastic tank). I guess I know what I'm doing, as I've never caused a fire or electrocuted someone. I don't "recommend it". Of course some here think I'm reckless.
The most potentially dangerous thing we do to others lives, is get in an auto and hop on a road, but I guess that's another story....

 

[DarkBlack]

The biggest generator safety issue is carbon monoxide. A couple of posters here keep trying to hype the back feed danger, which is wrong.
A woman just died in my small state this past week from CO. It's a real danger. Don't do it. DON'T run them in your garage or any wind restricted area next to your house!

 

[daybreak1998]

Howdy,
There are just some rules that all need to play by.
We drive on the right side of the road, we stop at stop signs, if we don't KAOS ensures. Sure, you can do a lot of things... you can drive on the left, you can blow by stops sings, run red lights etc.. it does not make it right.

Disconnects = for your safety, your families safety, and your neighbor helping out. Plus for anyone around you. Whether its a mechanical interlock, a lock, a manual transfer switch, or a automatic switch. Some do not need any transfer switch. why? because they only run a cord or 2 inside to power things and do not need access to other things powered.
generator-transfer-switch-choices

The electric companies would permanently disconnect you for your hazards. The Insurance companies would drop you due to liability. Your government (city, town, county whatever) inspectors would notify electric companies, and shut you off and fine you.

Generators = nice to have. Need to use common sense about operating it. Common sense says you should shut the engine off for refueling--- why? because of liability for the gasoline vapors and the hot exhaust.

The subject here is about whole home standby generators. Obviously they will be installed properly, with permits (depends where you live etc..) by someone that knows what there doing. A whole home generator will most likely have a automatic transfer switch. why? because most of the time they are included in the package. The choice of fuel will depend on access. If you have natural gas piped to your door, you are remote and have propane gas (is it large enough to last and if it gets long, can a supply company make it to you. Diesel, can be used in remote locations, you can re-fuel with cans, truck transfer tanks, or fueling service. Longevity of fuel needs to be watched. Diesel does not go bad like gasoline, but it also has its demons (algae, water) Gasoline, really has gotten hard to keep good with the 10% ethanol. Some areas still have access to 100% gasoline. Either way, gasoline has a limited shelf life, even with fuel stabilizers. Can be dangerous due to storage conditions, is volatile. In emergencies, stations can run out.

 

[buickanddeere]

The biggest generator safety issue is carbon monoxide. A couple of posters here keep trying to hype the back feed danger, which is wrong.
A woman just died in my small state this past week from CO. It's a real danger. Don't do it. DON'T run them in your garage or any wind restricted area next to your house!

So you are smarter than the engineers at the NEC and the utility code inspectors?

 

[daugen]

I have just asked a local long established electrician who has done many standby gens for a quote on running a Generac 22kw into my 400amp panels. Unlike the last electrician who said there was no room and both panels needed to be replaced, this one said, no, you have room. He said he even has installed a 22kw perfectly connected to both panels but each would need its own auto transfer switch. The gen comes with one, I'm sure another one would be seriously expensive, but there is also the expense of moving all those wires around in the panels to get one panel to run under gen and not the other one.

I am a retired insurance agent and volunteer fireman. I have a portable gen in a little shed fifty feet from the house and have plenty of extension cords. My last house had a 20kw generac due to my wife's health issues and it was a huge improvement in our quality of life living in an area where we lost power at least half a dozen times a year, sometimes for many hours. I also have awful arthritis and cannot pick up gas cans easily. For me paying 7 grand to have a professionally installed gen is worth every penny. Every single penny guys. We are all different and all have different needs.

What should never be an issue is safety. None of us have the right to expose others to danger foolishly or carelessly. Much less ourselves. Being safe takes so little extra time, and clearly not much money for some kind of basic disconnect, so telling us one has been doing this all one's life without a disconnect is only saying one is very very lucky and has avoided tragedy for the proverbial "Grace of God". As a long time retired fireman, I can tell you downed wires are pretty scary and while we wait for the electric company to get there, if life is at risk, firemen go in, and geez, do you think they want to contact a live wire attached to your gen? NO, of course not.

As they said at the end of Hill Street Blues, "let's be careful out there".

and maybe ratchet down the contentiousness here a little bit. Blanket statements always get us in trouble as there are always good exceptions to rules. But not ones where people can die in a few seconds...

I expect to get that quote after the holidays and get it installed in Jan. Will advise what the quote is and the arrangement chosen.

 

[ultrarunner]

When thinking of safety the possibility of auto start with no one at home is often overlooked.

A local family lost their home when the genset started automatically... the flames spread from the wooden structure and because the home was partially hidden, flames spread to the home.

Rodents had built a nest and the family was away for Thanksgiving when a branch took out power to their home.

A truly automatic system is just that... it will start and run until it can't, someone manually turns off the power or power is restored.

 

[K man]

That is just one incident that I ever heard of . This shows, if I read this post right about the rodents building a nest. If the generator exercised once a week like it is supposed to then the rodents would not of had a chance to build a nest if you know what I mean. I live in area where there are a lot of mice and they get into tractor, atv air filters only if they are parked for a long period of time but if use weekly chances of them building a nest are very slim. So I make sure that I start them at least once a week especially in the fall when they tend more to building a nest for the winter.
To be on the safe side anyone who is going to be away from their home for a long period of time should turn off their generators which is not a hard task to do just a button. Will save your home like in the incident above. Just saying.

 

[s219]

Well if it's rodents in a nest inside the enclosure as ultrarunner stated, that's not something an Electrical inspector would pick up when he signs off on the install. Maybe a conscientious homeowner would notice if he routinely inspected his generator, but I'd wager 99% are installed and forgotten/transparent to the homeowner except for periodic maintenance (probably annual at best, unless hours accumulated). A lot can happen in the 12 months between service calls.

I didn't want an auto-start system on my diesel because it's not needed in this stage of our lives. Don't need the generator running if we're not home, and don't need the convenience of auto-start. In the event of an outage that lasts more than an hour -- or if it's extremely hot/cold and we need HVAC -- I go out to the shed, run through a simple checklist, and then turn the key. Part of the checklist is making sure everything is in order.

I run my generator for 15-20 minutes every month. I perform a routine check of the entire generator shed and all systems at that time. Haven't found rodents yet, but I have found and cleared wasp nests and mud-dauber tubes (they even stuffed mud in the exposed ground hole of a receptacle I have out there to power a battery maintainer). That stuff is minor, but could lead to problems over the long term. Imagine running out in a power outage in the rain to find angry wasps defending their nest, or mud-dauber tubes over the ignition slot for the key, or maybe a copperhead snoozing on your diesel tank! Extrapolate that to all the other things insects/rodents/birds/nature can do to even the best-engineered systems, and I think monthly or weekly "manual" inspections are a must for a generator and its enclosure.

 

[ultrarunner]

Neglect is what it really comes down to.

They bought the home for a million plus and it came with the genset in a very nice area of the Oakland Hills.

Both are in the tech sector and they are the most helpless people when it comes to common sense around the home... never checked the Genset... said it was automatic.

I could write a book from 30 years of property management... how is it an 80 year old woman can keep her stove immaculate, knows how to property take out AND put back the burners to clean them and has a little tool box always at the ready and the 30 year old man next door doesn't own a screwdriver and has to call someone to light the water heater pilot light or clean the faucet aerator.

People on TBN are not representative of the society at large... we build, maintain, grow and operate as opposed to those that are simply consumers.

 

[farmer2009]

Drew what your wanting is doable. But it maybe simpler to have an automatic switch gear installed between the meter and the main in the panel. This would depend on how it's all set up. An experienced installer would be able to walk you through your options.

It's important that auto start gensets exercise atleast every two weeks. And the switch gear should switch that way you are adding a load also. Try to pick a time when you are normally home and awake. I run mine every Sunday morning for a 15 min exercise then a 15 min cool down under no load. The switch over is smooth enough it doesn't even effect my computers.

 

[K man]

My auto start generator is not inside a building. It is outside 18 inches from a wall and 10 feet from the propane tank and 4 feet from the nearest window this way there are less chances of wasp, snakes etc building their nests. My generator starts faithfully and runs for 13 minutes every Wednesday at 2 p.m and I also make it a habit of going over lifting the cover and checking the oil level at least every 2 weeks just to be on the safe side. I also have warning lights on the unit that tell me green is standing bye and ready. Red is a malfunction code and orange is service time. Very smart unit that Generac.

 

[s219]

My auto start generator is not inside a building. It is outside 18 inches from a wall and 10 feet from the propane tank and 4 feet from the nearest window this way there are less chances of wasp, snakes etc building their nests. My generator starts faithfully and runs for 13 minutes every Wednesday at 2 p.m and I also make it a habit of going over lifting the cover and checking the oil level at least every 2 weeks just to be on the safe side. I also have warning lights on the unit that tell me green is standing bye and ready. Red is a malfunction code and orange is service time. Very smart unit that Generac.

I don't think the enclosure makes a bit of a difference. It's good you lift it an check everything periodically, but I bet 99% of owners do not (and probably 50% of them aren't even capable). I think that's the whole jist of ultrarunner's story. It wouldn't take much to mess up a generator in a way that weekly tests don't pick up.

 

[buickanddeere]

Mud daubers , wasps are nasty little jerks. We had them pack the drain port in a tractor's coolant pump. The buildup of pressure pushed coolant past the seals.

 

[ultrarunner]

Homes are getting smarter... not so sure about people.

Seems knowledge that was basic even a generation or more ago isn't.

One of the Docs I work with is great otho guy... he bought a new 130k BMW and has trouble figuring it out...

The majority of Americans buy homes... they are far removed from the building side of things.

Some of the things I've seen would scare the daylights out of you... hooking up a gas dryer with a cheap rubber garden hose for the gas line.

Not venting the dryer and wondering why the house has mold.

Pouring Grease down the drains and then saying the plumbing is defective.

Using Cheap zip cord extension cords under carpets for space heaters.

Using Speaker Wire to add outlets.

Not mixing Oil for 2-Strokes and demanding money back when the motor seizes.

Using Duct Tape to keep circuit breaker from tripping.

Mixing chemicals like Ammonia and Bleach to clean.

Storing Gas Cans next to gas water heaters.

Piling Laundry up against a gas water heater.

Making a bedroom in the same room as a gas water heater.

Running Generators in a closed garage attached to the house.