Hydro or Shuttle for the long haul?

[aczlan]

My 35hp won't go up a commonly traveled hill any better than my 23hp did. (Same tractor, different engine.) The hp 'loss' of HST is in the limit of the hydro motor not input power to it. Higher rpm or hp won't help if the HST stalls and goes into relief for being in the wrong range. Full flow to HST doesn't require max rpm or hp any more than hydro flow and pressure does.

Exactly, listen to your tractor. if the motor sounds like it's lugging going up the hill, let off on the HST pedal until it speeds back up and see how it goes. If that's what you're hearing a larger engine with the same transmission will help.
If your motor sounds fine but you have a high pitched whine, the transmission is bypassing on the pressure relief and more horsepower won't help. Again, backing off on the HST pedal until the sound changes (making the effective "gearing" between the pump and the motor lower like shifting into a lower gear on a manual transmission) should help.

Aaron Z

 

[the old grind]

This ^^ Said better than I ever did.

HST has so little in common with driving a car/truck with an automatic transmission, where enough more pedal will get you a downshift, ... what we often can't avoid and why we have a range selector.

Got three ranges? You're good. Learn to use 'em.

 

[Blue Mule]

Just to appease my curiosity, I think that on Saturday I'm going back to my dealer to test a 40 HP HST tractor that they had sitting right next to mine the day I bought it. This dealer actually has a couple acres of land across the street that happens to be on a hillside. They park the large ag tractors over there. I'm going to see if they'll let me drive a 40 HP Compact tractor with HST just like mine over on that hill. That will reveal for certain what the difference would be and then I'll know whether I should trade up or just learn to use what I have. Should be interesting.

So this morning I drove back to my dealer. They had a Workmaster 40 Hydro sitting in front of the building. It didn't have a loader on it, so that is different from my Workmaster 25. But otherwise it's the SAME tractor all the way down to the tires, just with 15 more horsepower.

They let me take it for a spin. I warmed it up for a couple of minutes in the main parking lot, then headed across the road to the acreage on the hillside where they park their inventory of large ag tractors to see how it would handle high range. NIGHT AND DAY difference. No contest. The 40 horse will not only take off from a dead stop on a hillside, it'll also accelerate up the hill. This is at 1,800 RPM. My 25 HP won't even maintain speed on a lesser incline at 2,600 RPM. With the 40 HP, I could stop, start, stop, start, accelerate, back up, do anything I wanted to do in ANY gear range at ANY RPM. Totally different experience.

Granted, there is no loader on that one, but, it weighs 500 lbs. more than the 25 HP model. So effectively the weight difference is only about 300 lbs. between mine with a loader and the 40 HP without a loader. The usability of the 3 gear ranges is substantially better on the 40 HP.

So, that answers my question. With the hydrostatic trans, the engine power level does in fact make all the difference in the world.

My 25 only has 6.8 hours on it, so I'm going to leave it parked for the weekend and Monday when the new incentive/program info is announced for February the dealer is going to work some numbers for me and try to let me upgrade. I'll be MUCH happier with the 40 HP, even though I'll have to deal with the emissions equipment. Sigh...

 

[rbstern]

So this morning I drove back to my dealer. They had a Workmaster 40 Hydro sitting in front of the building. It didn't have a loader on it, so that is different from my Workmaster 25. But otherwise it's the SAME tractor all the way down to the tires, just with 15 more horsepower.

They let me take it for a spin. I warmed it up for a couple of minutes in the main parking lot, then headed across the road to the acreage on the hillside where they park their inventory of large ag tractors to see how it would handle high range. NIGHT AND DAY difference. No contest. The 40 horse will not only take off from a dead stop on a hillside, it'll also accelerate up the hill. This is at 1,800 RPM. My 25 HP won't even maintain speed on a lesser incline at 2,600 RPM. With the 40 HP, I could stop, start, stop, start, accelerate, back up, do anything I wanted to do in ANY gear range at ANY RPM. Totally different experience.

Granted, there is no loader on that one, but, it weighs 500 lbs. more than the 25 HP model. So effectively the weight difference is only about 300 lbs. between mine with a loader and the 40 HP without a loader. The usability of the 3 gear ranges is substantially better on the 40 HP.

So, that answers my question. With the hydrostatic trans, the engine power level does in fact make all the difference in the world.

My 25 only has 6.8 hours on it, so I'm going to leave it parked for the weekend and Monday when the new incentive/program info is announced for February the dealer is going to work some numbers for me and try to let me upgrade. I'll be MUCH happier with the 40 HP, even though I'll have to deal with the emissions equipment. Sigh...

Thanks for sharing the experience. Wish you luck in working the deal for the upgrade!

 

[npalen]

So this morning I drove back to my dealer. They had a Workmaster 40 Hydro sitting in front of the building. It didn't have a loader on it, so that is different from my Workmaster 25. But otherwise it's the SAME tractor all the way down to the tires, just with 15 more horsepower.

They let me take it for a spin. I warmed it up for a couple of minutes in the main parking lot, then headed across the road to the acreage on the hillside where they park their inventory of large ag tractors to see how it would handle high range. NIGHT AND DAY difference. No contest. The 40 horse will not only take off from a dead stop on a hillside, it'll also accelerate up the hill. This is at 1,800 RPM. My 25 HP won't even maintain speed on a lesser incline at 2,600 RPM. With the 40 HP, I could stop, start, stop, start, accelerate, back up, do anything I wanted to do in ANY gear range at ANY RPM. Totally different experience.

Granted, there is no loader on that one, but, it weighs 500 lbs. more than the 25 HP model. So effectively the weight difference is only about 300 lbs. between mine with a loader and the 40 HP without a loader. The usability of the 3 gear ranges is substantially better on the 40 HP.

So, that answers my question. With the hydrostatic trans, the engine power level does in fact make all the difference in the world.

My 25 only has 6.8 hours on it, so I'm going to leave it parked for the weekend and Monday when the new incentive/program info is announced for February the dealer is going to work some numbers for me and try to let me upgrade. I'll be MUCH happier with the 40 HP, even though I'll have to deal with the emissions equipment. Sigh...

Are you sure that the 40HP unit doesn't have a larger displacement hydro on it to use the additional horsepower?

Edit: The reason I ask is that a stronger hydro could be complementing the additional horsepower. Either one by itself may not be providing the total performance improvement that you're seeing.

 

[Blue Mule]

Are you sure that the 40HP unit doesn't have a larger displacement hydro on it to use the additional horsepower?

Edit: The reason I ask is that a stronger hydro could be complementing the additional horsepower. Either one by itself may not be providing the total performance improvement that you're seeing.

I'm not sure of anything. It took quite a bit of research just to find the model number of the engines on these tractors. I have no idea who makes the transmissions, or what differences there may be on the internals. I'm not sure anybody does. Seems like LS/New Holland detailed specs are virtually impossible to find.

All I know is that in the same size tractor with the same tires front and rear, the higher horsepower models make all 3 gear ranges totally usable while the 25 horsepower model is sorely lacking. And frankly, that's all I needed to know.

Still haven't heard from my dealer yet. If he doesn't call me today I'll call him tomorrow. Hopefully it'll work out.

 

[arrow]

That's the trouble with a slew of information. Alot gets lost. I said the same thing you're experiencing way back in post #37
Nothing like "experience" to solidify one's own thoughts however.
That's why teenagers make you crazy. They just gotta do it and see for themselves no matter what's been said.

 

[the old grind]

Blue Mule, I like where you're going with this. IMO details are moot if you've found what you like.

Glad it didn't take long. Your satisfaction: priceless.

 

[ericm979]

Are you sure that the 40HP unit doesn't have a larger displacement hydro on it to use the additional horsepower?

Edit: The reason I ask is that a stronger hydro could be complementing the additional horsepower. Either one by itself may not be providing the total performance improvement that you're seeing.

A larger displacement HST pump with the same size HST motor would have the same effect as a higher gear ratio (i.e. a 2.71 rear end vs a 3.50). More fluid is being pushed for the same engine RPM. That makes it harder to go up hill not easier. Of course the increased power could more than compensate for that.

A larger displacement HST motor would have the effect of gearing the tractor down (3.50 rear end vs the 2.71). Which would make it easier to get up hills but also reduce the max speed in each range. It's unlikely they would make a 40hp tractor significantly slower than the 25hp one. Usually the larger tractors are geared higher.

 

[pmsmechanic]

Are you sure that the 40HP unit doesn't have a larger displacement hydro on it to use the additional horsepower?

Edit: The reason I ask is that a stronger hydro could be complementing the additional horsepower. Either one by itself may not be providing the total performance improvement that you're seeing.

There would be an easy way to figure this all out. Go to New Hollands parts website and start comparing part numbers. If someone states the two model numbers of the tractors in question I'll spend a bit of time on it tonite if no one does it before me. I'm going to assume they are both HST.