I almost broke the law...alot

[Steve_a_reno]

This is goes with the post below " Broke the law....a lot". Last month I shopped around for a dump trailer, biggest one I could find as I have a lot to haul. Last Jan. we had a wildland fire that took out our 40 acres, my Dad's 200 acres and burned his house to the ground. Thanks goodness we were well insured, but non the less, I have 40 acres of Ponderosa to clear, and last July we suffered 2 major floods as the burn scar won't hold water. The trailer I purchased was a 8x20 ft. tandem dually gooseneck with 4 ft. sides....nice cuz it would haul 5 cords of firewood! I had it delivered and the very next day, a friend say, hey, you need a class "A" CDL to pull that around. Are you kidding me? I already have a class "B" and drove a school bus for a while to help our school from time to time. I remember how tough it was to get that. Now, thinking how many times I would use this trailer later on, I don't need to go though all this, and it not like I'm going to use this at a full time job. Problem is the GVWR on the trailer is 20,000 and my Dodge 1 ton dually is 11,000 for a CGVW
of 31,000 and the limit in Colorado is 26,001. So, here's what I did, call the local trailer sales and traded it in for a 14,000 dump trailer made by Texas Bragg. I am very please with the new unit. It even seems to be built tougher, and as far as the empty weight, the 20 footer was 5900, and the 14 footer weighs 5600, so I know it must be pretty tough. It's not going to haul the 5 cords, but it will carry 3 if I build up the sides a foot. Sides and gate are built better and this one has a scissor lift which I like better. I brought home 5.5 ton of rotomill the other day and it hauled like a dream....and it didn't take a CDL to do that either. LOL That monster trailer can stay put and I couldn't be happier with this one. I can say I made the right move and now weigh in at 25,000 CGVW. In a nutshell, I would have kept the other if I was in the business or used it all the time, but for me, thats not the case.

Steve

 

[Dirthog]

Only trouble is you still need a CDL because the trailer is over 10,000 pounds the limit for some one with anything but a CDL just look over the other post completely and you will see that

 

[Steve_a_reno]

Ok, this is a copy paste right from the Colorado CDL book. Read carefully on towed vehicles over 10,000 lbs. They then combine both the towed vehicle and the power units combined GVWR and you must have a CDL for any compination over 26,001 provided the power unit is not already over 26,001. My current CDL Class "B" licence states this as well. If you are towing anything under 10,000 lbs you can use just about any vehicle even a truck over 26,001.

Hope this ends some confusion!
Steve



1.2 Classes of Commercial Licenses

(See Federal Motor Safety Regulations - Part 383.91)

CDL Class A. Any combination of vehicles with a GCWR**
of 26,001 or more pounds provided the GVWR* of the
vehicle(s) being towed is in excess of 10,000 pounds.
Holders of a CDL Class A license, with the appropriate
endorsements, may operate vehicles in lower classes.
* CAUTION WHEN TOWING OTHER VEHICLES, check
your GVWR’s.
Many single vehicles have manufacturer's ratings that are
below the 26,001 GVWR limitation so the operator is NOT
required to have a CDL. However, when towing another
vehicle, they may exceed the Gross Combination Weight
Rating limitations and the operator is required to have a
CDL. If the vehicle being towed has a GVWR of more
than 10,000 pounds and the combination of the ratings
for the two vehicles is more than 26,001 pounds, the operator
must have a CDL Class A.

 

[wushaw]

No he doesn't.
http://www.revenue.state.co.us/mv_dir/formspdf/2337.pdf

You beat me to it
But here is a link to y'alls driver handbook.

 

[Chris_in_Oz]

What a trailer!

I'm just sitting here trying to think of a reason to "need" one...

 

[Dirthog]

If you read your own post it states any vehicle being towed having a GVWR in excess of 10,000 must have a CDL and this is federal not state laws. Your trailer you stated is rated at 14,000 GVWR there for you must have a CDL. They do not lump the weights together in order to get to the 26,001 limit. The state can not use a law that is less strict than the federal that is the reason these federal laws were put in to effect to make everyone the same

 

[Steve_a_reno]

Ok Dirthog, I'm not going to argue here, but you simply aren't reading into this correctly. Just read the last sentence of the Colorado Handbook post, and it should be very clear, and yes they do lump them together. Now, in the very first sentence, Any combination of vehicles with a CGWR, THIS MEANS COMBINATION GROSS WEIGHT RATING, a lump of the two vehicles. Now weight rating is NOT the actual weight of the two, but the rating of which the vehicle can carry. My Dodge weights in at 8100 lbs, but the GWVR rating is 11,000.
Trailer weighs 5600 lbs, but the GVWR is 14000 lbs. The combination of the two CGWR is 11,000 +14,000 = 25,000. Now I will have to be careful in loading gravel or heavy weights. If I were to put more than 6 ton on the trailer, I could be over the 26001 lbs limit.

Now, Dirthog here's the Federal rule pasted below, and is the same as Colorado's rules. Again, read carefully (a) (1), its a combination of 26,001 pounds or more, provided that the towed vehicle IS, IS over 10,000.
Key word IS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Doesn't say cannot be over 10,000

Now read again, (a) (2), Heavy Straight Vehicle this says a class B or group B vehicle of more than 26001 lbs, any such vehicle towing a vehicle NOT in excess of 4,536 kilograms (10,000 pounds) GVWR. This vehicle CANNOT TOW MORE THAN 10,000 without a CLASS A CDL

Again, its right here in english, Colorado as well as Federal. Dirthog, if you want to go ahead and believe you can't tow more than 10,000 under Federal law, its ok by me. I did the best I could!

Cheers!
Steve



Here's a copy and paste right from the Federal Motor Safety Regulations - Part 383.91

Subpart F — Vehicle Groups and Endorsements

§383.91 Commercial motor vehicle groups.

(a) Vehicle group descriptions. Each driver applicant must possess and be tested on his/her knowledge and skills, described in subpart G of this part, for the commercial motor vehicle group(s) for which he/she desires a CDL. The commercial motor vehicle groups are as follows:

(a)(1) Combination vehicle (Group A) — Any combination of vehicles with a gross combination weight rating (GCWR) of 11,794 kilograms or more (26,001 pounds or more) provided the GVWR of the vehicle(s) being towed is in excess of 4,536 kilograms (10,000 pounds).

(a)(2) Heavy Straight Vehicle (Group B) — Any single vehicle with a GVWR of 11,794 kilograms or more (26,001 pounds or more), or any such vehicle towing a vehicle not in excess of 4,536 kilograms (10,000 pounds) GVWR.

(a)(3) Small Vehicle (Group C) — Any single vehicle, or combination of vehicles, that meets neither the definition of Group A nor that of Group B as contained in this section, but that either is designed to transport 16 or more passengers including the driver, or is used in the transportation of materials found to be hazardous for the purposes of the Hazardous Materials Transportation Act and which require the motor vehicle to be placarded under the Hazardous Materials Regulations (49 CFR part 172, subpart F).

 

[RayH]

Steve,
Just give it up.
Ive gotten myself into enough of these threads to realize that it doesnt matter how many times you post that law, the way it is written, people dont get it.
I'll admit that CA has taken it upon themselves to rewrite the federal standards but every other state Ive seen basically says the same thing. If they want to continue to believe they need a CDL for a 10000lbs trailer, let them believe it and get that CDL. Doesnt hurt me any.

 

[Dirthog]

Steve I don't intend to argue I do know Pa. has and will contintue to fine anyone they stop who does not have a class A when towing a trailer over 10,000 gvw for the trailer only.I also know of two people who tried to fight the law and the judge told them what his interpertation of the law was ie pay the fine your guilty. I have had a CDL for many years with the air brake and hazsmat so It does not bother me either way. They are also getting very picky about as log book DOT physical and fuel tax stamp.

 

[DavesTractor]

In California you would still need a CDL, but it appears you are 100% legal in Colorado. I guess the lesson for anyone buying a bigger trailer is to call your local commercial officer and ask. We have a great staff at the local highway patrol scales and they don't mind answering such questions.

 

[neverenough]

If your state has adopted the federal laws, and not modified them, then you do not need a CDL for any CGVWR under 26,001lbs. Remember though, the tow vehicle MUST be rated for the trailer weight being towed. Doesn't have to be the gross weight, but the actual measured weight must not exceed the tow vehicles rating. As a general rule of thumb, a truck like an F-450/550 is the largest truck you can operate without a CDL. They have a GCWR of 26,000lbs. This is also why they have the 26,000 GCWR, so you don't need a CDL to use the truck to it's full capacity. I know a couple states have modified the federal standards, but as stated in the other thread, they can only go stricter with them. Best check with your local/state agency, and be sure to get multiple answers. Don't just talk to one person and take that as the way it is. Call the Highway patrol, call the DMV, ect...

 

[Chuck_Lind]

Maybe we should just hire a lawyer to interpret the whole CDL laws!!!

But then again, he or she will take all our money and we still won't have an answer.

 

[George2615]

Ok, this is a copy paste right from the Colorado CDL book. Read carefully on towed vehicles over 10,000 lbs. They then combine both the towed vehicle and the power units combined GVWR and you must have a CDL for any compination over 26,001 provided the power unit is not already over 26,001. My current CDL Class "B" licence states this as well. If you are towing anything under 10,000 lbs you can use just about any vehicle even a truck over 26,001.

Hope this ends some confusion!
Steve





1.2 Classes of Commercial Licenses

(See Federal Motor Safety Regulations - Part 383.91)

CDL Class A. Any combination of vehicles with a GCWR**
of 26,001 or more pounds provided the GVWR* of the
vehicle(s) being towed is in excess of 10,000 pounds.
Holders of a CDL Class A license, with the appropriate
endorsements, may operate vehicles in lower classes.
* CAUTION WHEN TOWING OTHER VEHICLES, check
your GVWR’s.
Many single vehicles have manufacturer's ratings that are
below the 26,001 GVWR limitation so the operator is NOT
required to have a CDL. However, when towing another
vehicle, they may exceed the Gross Combination Weight
Rating limitations and the operator is required to have a
CDL. If the vehicle being towed has a GVWR of more
than 10,000 pounds and the combination of the ratings
for the two vehicles is more than 26,001 pounds, the operator
must have a CDL Class A.

They key words above are AND and MORE. As in "If the vehicle being towed has a GVWR of more than 10,000 pounds AND the combination of the ratings for the two vehicles is MORE than 26,001 pounds, the operator must have a CDL Class A"

I have a CDL myself but the way I interpret the above is that if I hook my 12,000 pound gooseneck trailer up to my truck and it is loaded to the max at 12K. My truck weighs 7K so the GCVW totals 19K so I am under 26,001 and not required to have a CDL.

My truck is actually rated to haul up to 15,500# max trailer plus the 7K weight of the truck totalling 22,500 which is still under the 26,001.

The above also states that many single vehicles have manufactures ratings that are below the 26,001 GVWR limitation not requiring a CDL. However, when towing another vehicle they may exceed the GCWR rating limitation requiring a CDL.
My truck and trailer GCWR do not exceed the 26,001 ratings requiring a CDL.

NY State changed the weight ratings of drivers licenses last year to agree with the Federal requirements above because of a gray area in the law. Before last year a CDL was required in NY if the GCWR was above 18,001#. NY State realized there was a conflict since many class A type motorhomes weight more than 18K but less than 26,001 and owners were driving them for private use and not for hire with a regular NON-CDL license since a CDL was not required. The NY law used to say if you drove for hire and were over 18,001 you needed a CDL but for your own private use such as a large motorhome over 18,001 you did not (the drive for hire was a technical flaw in the law).

 

[Steve_a_reno]

Thats good advice at this point from Neverenough. I am totally clear on our State (Colorado) and Federal laws on this issue without question. If your second guessing your state law or Federal for that matter, even what I posted, check with your local DMV, and I would really check with a local weight stations.
I'm sure not going to say every state is like Colorado. I did check the Pennsylvania CDL Manual and it is the same as Colorado's and pasted it below. California does however have a 10,000 limit with a Class C or Basic license as shown below.

I'd like to also share this. While at the trailer dealer, I was eyeballing another
tandem axle, Made by Titan I believe, that was a bit wider than the one I purchased. I have a Branson Tractor with FEL and Backhoe I will be towing from time to time, so wider was looking good! WRONG, It had a GVWR of 16400 and combined with my truck (11,000) would have totaled 27400. That shot that idea out the window.
I did measure out the trailer I did purchase and tractor fits perfect. Little tight (2 inches on both sides) but going to work fine.

Steve

As a result of the Federal Commercial Motor Vehicle Safety Act of 1986, Pennsylvania established a
Commercial Driver Licensing Program. This program has been developed to improve driver quality,
ensure that commercial drivers have the skills needed to operate commercial vehicles, and to
prevent drivers from having more than one driver’s license. The Program requires you to have a
Commercial Driver’s License (CDL) if you operate, or plan to operate any of the following
Commercial Motor Vehicles (CMV’s):
a) A combination of vehicles with a gross vehicle weight rating of 26,001 pounds or more,
provided the vehicle being towed is in excess of 10,000 pounds.
b) A single vehicle with a gross vehicle weight rating (GVWR) of 26,001 or more pounds.
c) A vehicle designed to transport 16 or more persons, including the driver.
d) A school bus designed to carry 11 passengers or more, including the driver.
e) Any size vehicle which transports hazardous materials and is required to be placarded in
accordance with Department regulations.


California Handbook Reference:
You may Tow:
• a single vehicle with a GVWR of 10,000 lbs. or less including a tow dolly, if used.
With a vehicle weighing 4,000 lbs. or more unladen, you may tow a:
• trailer coach not exceeding 9,000 lbs. gross.
• trailer coach or 5th-wheel travel trailer under 10,000 lbs. GVWR when towing is not for
compensation
• 5th-wheel travel trailer exceeding 10,000 lbs. but not exceeding 15,000 lbs. GVWR,
when towing is not for compensation and with endorsement.
NOTE: No passenger vehicle regardless of weight, may tow more than one vehicle. No
motor vehicle under 4,000 lbs. unladen may tow any vehicle weighing 6,000 lbs. or more
gross. (VC §21715)

 

[Steve_a_reno]

George,

That all sounds about right. I think its all important we look at our little stickers and check weights. Also, the first time I went for Rotomill, the fella in town loaded me up with a hefty load. I asked for 5 ton and he loaded me up with his big loader, said each scoop is a ton. We got on the scale, Truck and Trailer, tip it a over 28,000. I was overloaded to say the least. He had over 7.4 ton my trailer! I'll have to look back at the actual truck trailer weight on the ticket, but the combination of the two empty is 13000 + something. I realize that it would be easy to overload behond 26,000.

Steve

 

[Andy-H]

To RayH and Steve a Reno it does not matter how both of you interpret the the law its how the cop writing the ticket interprets it. Here's a true story, a long time friend who lives in CA took his dump trailer ( 7x14 ) to a dump in CA. When he got there the CHP was at the scales writing tickets. When he put his trailer on the scale it weighed 18,000 lbs on just the axles. The cop gave him a choice on his ticket, for being over 10k and not having a class "A" license or for being 4k over the gross of the trailer. Another story I was looking for a job here in Michigan at a equipment rental place. The owner asked if I had an "A" license. I told him that at my old job I never drove semi's off of the property. The owner wanted me to deliver equipment from time to time with a pick-up and flat bed that the trailer would be over 10k that I would need an "A" license. Steve ,I centainly don't want you to have to go through the misery my friend In CA did by getting a ticket. These are two different stories from two different states. These laws were written a long enough ago that the trailers you can go out and buy today did not exist. If i were you I'd try to keep that (nice trailer by the way) under 10k loaded.

 

[RayH]

To RayH and Steve a Reno it does not matter how both of you interpret the the law its how the cop writing the ticket interprets it. Here's a true story, a long time friend who lives in CA took his dump trailer ( 7x14 ) to a dump in CA. When he got there the CHP was at the scales writing tickets. When he put his trailer on the scale it weighed 18,000 lbs on just the axles. The cop gave him a choice on his ticket, for being over 10k and not having a class "A" license or for being 4k over the gross of the trailer. Another story I was looking for a job here in Michigan at a equipment rental place. The owner asked if I had an "A" license. I told him that at my old job I never drove semi's off of the property. The owner wanted me to deliver equipment from time to time with a pick-up and flat bed that the trailer would be over 10k that I would need an "A" license. Steve ,I centainly don't want you to have to go through the misery my friend In CA did by getting a ticket. These are two different stories from two different states. These laws were written a long enough ago that the trailers you can go out and buy today did not exist. If i were you I'd try to keep that (nice trailer by the way) under 10k loaded.

I pains me but I do have to agree about needing a CDL for a flat trailer over 10000lbs in CA. I really thought all states had adopted the federal standard. CA is the only one Ive seen that hasnt or has modified it. I dont like admitting that Im wrong any more than anyone else, especially after being so adament, but at least I do it. I do not admit to being wrong about this in ANY of the others states that have been mentioned.
About MI though, I hate to tell you but I think the guy at the rental place didnt want to hire you, either that or he didnt know the requirements for a CDL. In MI, you dont need a CDL to pull a 10000lbs trailer as long as you stay under 26001lbs. You are correct that the officer can ticket you but you would definately win in court. Not much to interpret. You got screwed out of a job because you took the word of a rental shop owner over a DMV document. Here it is straight from the MI DMV
" Any Michigan resident who intends to operate the following commercial vehicles is required to have a commercial driver license:
Single Vehicles - Having a gross vehicle weight rating (GVWR)* of 26,001 pounds or more.
Combination Vehicles - Towing a trailer or other vehicles with a GVWR of 10,001 pounds or more when the gross combination weight rating (GCWR)** is 26,001 pounds or more."
Who Needs a Commercial Driver License (CDL)?

 

[rback33]

Holy Crap.. some people make me soo tired. AS stated in the OTHER thread...Fed Law says you DON"T NEED A CDL if the total tow capacity is below 26,001 lbs... HOWEVER this is a MINIMUM and each state can deviate to the more stringent side... ie CA... I (meaning me as the Rep. for my Comapny) just went through a Federal DOT compliance review... it's very cut and dried...

 

[Steve_a_reno]

Thank you Rayh,

I hate to admit as well I spent 8 years as a Colorado Municipal Judge hearing traffic, city ordinance violations, misdemeanors, lived in Colorado almost 30 years, and never new or studied CRS about trailers and weights. I have sent off many, many transcripts to DMV for all kinds of different violations, but weight and most CDL violations are be written into county court as a state violation. But hey, I make mistakes like anyone, just kind of embarrassed I went out and purchased the biggest trailer I could find, (the 20 footer, 20,000 GVWR) and never thought about checking into the weights or if it was legal to pull this with my pickup. I see these types up and down the freeway, and every rancher out here seems to have a big one on their place. My other option was the farm plate on the pickup, but then I would be limited to 150 miles from the ranch here. I even have a class B CDL now, for any single vehicle over 26,000, P endorsed for School Bus, airbrakes, and tanker. Our fire dept has a 3300 gal Freightliner over 26,000, so I went ahead an took the tanker test just in the event later down the road, they change that law. Fire apparatus is currently exempt, but I see California has requirements.
Again, I think some are getting confused and think that the 10,000 lb is the limit, but its really when towing over 10,000 in combination, it falls under the combination of the two vehicle catagory. Michigan explains this better than most states.....thanks for posting.
Another thing, a state dosen't adopt federal law......federal law is enforced across the US period. A state can amend their laws stricter like California did, but federal law still exist in all states. Our city ordinances must follow state CRS or can be amended stricter, but no less than state law.

BTW, I was born in Detroit, grew up just north of Pontiac in a town called Clarkston

Steve

 

[neverenough]

I'm thinking there might be some misunderstandings here about towing trailers and ratings. I will try to keep it on the simple side.

(I'll be using numbers found on Gooseneck trailers)

Say you have a truck with a Gross Vehicle Weight Rating of 10,000lbs. You also have a trailer Gross Vehicle Weight Rating of 20,000lbs. That equals 30,000lbs. Now, you also have what is called a Gross Combined Weight Rating for your tow vehicle. Let's say that is 20,000lbs. Legally, you can tow/haul enough weight that will give you an overall weight of 20,000lbs, as long as you have not exceeded the tow vehicles or trailers GVWR.

For the sake of arguement, we'll say the tow vehicle weighs 7000lbs, and the trailer weighs 4000lbs. That's 11,000 of the 20,000 pounds you can weigh. You can only haul a 9000 pound load.

Now, you must also be careful of the axle limits too. Say your rear axle is rated for 6000lbs, and when you hook the empty trailer up, the rear axle weight is at 4500lbs. That means you can only have 1500lbs of hitch weight transfer to the rear axle. On a gooseneck, some of the weight is transfered to the front axle too (It's best to hit the scales a couple times with various loads to understand how the weight effects each axle of the tow vehicle). The rest of the weight must be carried by the trailer axles. As a general rule of thumb, 15% or the gross weight should be hitch weight (gooseneck). It can vary, but that is the target weight.

These are just simple numbers I threw out, it's best to get a calculator out and figure the number on YOUR specific truck and trailer. Remember, conventional trailers get more complicated becouse of weight distribution hitches.