If you are thinking about buying a gray market tractor

[mark777]

Bob,

Whatever the decision to NOT disclose the identity I'll assume is personal. And I'm sure most will respect that.


I just can't help myself from feeling that the next unsuspecting soul, who is as you were, a little too trusting, hasn't researched the tractor and the selling dealer, does indeed purchase from them...and the trouble starts all over again.

If I may ask one final question before you commit to the John Deere forum?

What do you think will happen to the returned YM1610D and do you honestly believe they will address ALL of the items that are now 'Known Defects" on your lengthy suggested repair list??

I don't.

If I had forgotten everything on your original, and very long list of problems (which I haven't)....I would never forget that your dealer actually implied that 10" of steering free play is actually safer in the event that you hit something with the front wheels....OMG!

Good luck with the new JD790.

Mark

 

[Mech]

I did/do struggle with someone else getting the tractor but don't know how to stop that w/o trashing the dealer and I just don't want to go there. Out of the non-cosmetic issues with the tractor:

- rear wheel oil leak
- FWD shaft oil leak
- Low engine compression
- Alternator not charging
- Original water hoses
- Original Fuel hoses
- steering gear play
- Brackets for step and drawbar
- Thermastart not working
- hydraulics not working when cold
- 3pt pin broken
- wrong fuses
- clutch interlock not working
- FEL oil leak
- light switch freezing when cold

All but the first five I fixed. The alternator is pretty obvious so must be fixed. A buyer can see the hoses if they get to see the tractor and is not terribly expensive to fix. The oil leaks only show up after an hour or so of use and the tractor will probably start with its compression at a lower altitude so these may or may not be fixed. The tractor had very adequate power with the compression, only didn't like to start w/o the TS at 8600 ft so for most this might be a OK tractor although with this history I would worry about what else is almost ready to break.

 

[tmoritz]

Mech - I too want to respect your decision not to disclose the name of the dealer. Having said that, you could save a number of people some real heartache by changing your mind. It seems to me that the community on this board is so generous with their advice that it would be much appreciated if you reciprocated by telling us whom we are dealing with (pardon the pun). But my first sentence above still stands!

 

[tmoritz]

Mech - No need to trash the dealer. Just continue to keep it factual. I would just hate it if the price for keeping the questionable dealer anonymous gets paid by other unsuspecting customers.

 

[LMTC]

Playing devil's advocate, I will say that if a prospective buyer follows Bob's buying suggestions, even short of going to see the tractor, they are very unlikely to be on the receiving end of what he got. Anyone's tractor can have a mechanical problem, so there is never an absolute way to avoid that, but the kind of raw deal he got can come from more than one seller, I assure you of that. Get references....can't stress that enough. Listen for inconsistencies in the sales pitch, never accept something other than what was agreed upon unless you have been asked first. We have had to make changes at times, but we always give the customer the information and the opportunity to make the decision.

Not that long ago we held up a delivery because we found a seal leaking when we loaded. I called the customer and let HIM decide....I could not make the situation not exist, but I could (and did) give the customer the right to choose between the available options....deliver on time with parts, or we fix the leak and deliver late (and we assumed at that point several days later). He decided, we put it in the shop, and as it turned out we were able to leave several hours later and make a nearly timely delivery.

Bob has clearly stated he didn't do enough homework, and his point is well taken that doing that homework would likely have left the seller in his case without a sale. As I reflect on it I'm not so sure a name matters anyway, as no matter what documentation or experiences one recounts there are always those willing to tempt fate for the perceived sweetness of a lower price. I know his seller and wouldn't buy $10 bills from them for a dollar. Others would and do buy tractors there, in some cases even knowing some of the problem cases. He has done prospective buyers a service already by recounting his bad experience in detail, and offering suggestions as to how to avoid repeating his mistake.

How the heck did I end up here? I was the first to call on you to disclose the seller. After reading your latest posts and re-reading the early ones, I have changed my general position. Again, good luck with the 790, and thanks for being so clear and specific about your issues....in the long run I think your reports of your experience benefit both buyers and honest sellers in this market.

 

[Mech]

Just a couple of more points:

1) everyone has their own threshold of what is acceptable. I personally think that play in the steering, oil leaks, only staring with the cold start assist are things that have to be fixed. Others may not feel the same way. I drive everyone around me crazy with my desire to make everything perfect. Just ask my very patient wife. So even though I have excellent documentation of all the problems I don't want to get into arguments about issues that could be subjective to many.

2) I had warnings before I did this deal. Statements like "most people think the tractor is new but we tell them it isn't" and our reconditioner does such a good job that they feel strongly that they can zero the hour meter, should have been giant red flags and made me stop the deal. I made the fundamental error of getting caught up in the excitment of a new tractor and lost my good judgement.

I think a careful buyer won't make the same mistake and as LMTC said if they aren't a careful buyer there are probably more than one dealer that could sell them a bad tractor.

Thanks again for everyone's help and understanding in this.

 

[Bird]

For those who want Mech to name the dealer, let me pass on a bit of information. Naming that dealer would not be allowed on Tractorbynet for several reasons:
1) We assume that Mech, being one of our members, is telling the absolute truth, and in this case, I have no doubt such is the case. However, we actually have no proof that is the case, or any way to prevent another dealer from making up stories to trash his competition.
2) While we are confident that Mech is being honest as the day is long, we'll only hear one side of the story; won't hear that dealer's side. Is that fair?
3) Mech would be leaving himself open to a lawsuit for libel or slander. As far as I know, the courts have so far held that the person posting the information (or misinformation) is liable, but not the website owner. However, since anyone can sue anyone, there would be nothing to prevent that dealer from suing Tractorbynet. And while courts have so far ruled in favor of the website owners, that could change in the future.
4) If the dealer sued Mech and/or Tractorbynet, even if they prevailed in court, it's expensive to defend against a lawsuit, including those you win.
5) In this particular case, it appears that the problem has been resolved and is over, but whether it is or not, no website discussion forum is the proper place to settle such matters.
In other words, in my opinion, Mech has taken the high road and followed the proper course of action.

 

[phatgemi]

While it may be best not to name the alleged offender, let's not wrap it in the "lawsuit" blanket. There have actually been very few actual "internet libel/slander" lawsuits. And even then, it would have to be proven that he knew the statements he was making were false. There are countless websites where businesses get taken to task for faulty product/service. It's been done right here on this very site! If I were ready to buy a tractor and said "hey guys, I'm buying a new ym2000 from humpty dumpty tractor", and four of five of you had horrible experiences with humpty, then I would like to know about it. Perhaps a private email would be in order.

What should be happening is that we should start fileing suits against faulty advertising. Bait and switch, that's normally illegal. Wrongfully advertising year of manufacture could fall in there. Let's add statements such as:"you can get any parts you need at your friendly John Deere dealer". I think they know that's false. Could I sue and win? Of course not! Plenty of wiggle room for them to escape.

The bottom line is that there are several credible dealers that you can depend on. Praise them and their service. Continue to utilize them. When you come across a less than credible dealer, let all know. Over a long period of time, the market will probably dictate their survival.

 

[Bird]

You're certainly free to disagree with me, phatgemi, but whether we agree or disagree, dealer bashing is not allowed in the discussion forums on Tractorbynet. You say it's been done here and I won't argue the point other than to say the moderators don't always catch everything we should, but we try. Private messages or e-mails can certainly be exchanged and the recipient can decide for himself/herself how much weight to give them in making a decision.

 

[phatgemi]

I don't disagree that strongly. I just don't think if I have a raw deal and state the facts as they happened to me, it would fall into dealer bashing. I don't think that many people keep their mouths shut when they experience a bad business deal.