If you're causcasian you're in big trouble

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   / If you're causcasian you're in big trouble #81  
Re: If you\'re causcasian you\'re in big trouble

Egad, Wroughtn_Harv,

I'm pretty sure Elvis is dead, but I'm beginning to believe that plane crash was faked and the Cowboy Philosopher is alive and well and living somewhere in Texas.

Chuck
 
   / If you're causcasian you're in big trouble #82  
Re: If you\'re causcasian you\'re in big trouble

Richard, I missed your question last night. I use Lexis.com, which is a subscription service of Lexis/Nexis. I think you can find free legal search stuff at loislaw.com, though.
 
   / If you're causcasian you're in big trouble #83  
Re: If you\'re causcasian you\'re in big trouble

"Immigrants with other languages have come in
the past and they or their children have learned English. I believe that will continue to
be the case without a law."

The law in question was not to change immigration, or prevent children from learning English, or to criminalize not knowing English. Your surmise is correct. The kids will probably learn English, law or not. Trus stuff but not to the point.

"I don't believe that sink-or-swim is the best way to teach
water safety or language skills, so I have no problem with trying to address language
problems in our schools. "

Again we are in agreement!

"I do not believe that the U.S. will somehow lose our ability to
do business with the rest of the world if we do not declare English to be our official
language."

This is less cut and dried.

"Do I see harm in such a law? I imagine someone could find a way to abuse it.
That's what laws are for, nicht var?"

No, yo no creo. What is your point here? Since all laws can be abused and abuse is bad to reduce abuse we should not have laws? You and I apparently either don't have a difference of opinion or can't seem to articulate it as I agree with the majority of your statements some of which, like mine, might stray off the central theme.

The motivation for an English is our official language law is from various directions. Some feel it is the last chance of an oppressed MAJORITY to preserve an important piece of their way of life. I'm not paranoid about it but they aren't entirely wrong in their concern. Some feel strongly about some of the other issues I mentioned.

You allude to it being a step toward a police state, which I find more than a bit extreme.

Treat the country as a biological entity. It is encumbent on that entity to do that which is required of it to maintain itself or be replaced and lose its niche. We aren't too good at that.

Without being alarmist let me tell you a little story about how to make frog soup. Put a frog into hot water and he will jump out so you put the frog in cold water and heat the water slowly. The frog gets relaxed and gets used to the temp as it slowly changes till he is so hot and relaxed (ever overstayed your time in a too hot Jacuzzi?) that when he finally perceives the water temp as a threat he is unable to get out.

This is the way we Americans allow many things that out founding fathers held dear and died for to be eroded. Gradualism will take away many of our rights, freedoms, and priveleges because there is never enough "immediate" change to warrant "reasonable" men to take action over such a small thing. Hey, it is just a grain of sand, no big deal. Enough grains of sand will burry you.

Peace brother,

Patrick
 
   / If you're causcasian you're in big trouble #84  
Re: If you\'re causcasian you\'re in big trouble

W-Harv, I believe you reside in Texas. I have visited Plano on several occassions and know of a BP station on East Plano Parkway where the unemployed (typically Mexicans) hang out looking for day jobs. As it was explained to me, if you need some physical labor you can pick up these guys. They will do the work, you pay cash drop them back off and you go on your merry way with no oblications. Harv, is this common where you are located? If so, have you utilized them? If so, are you obligated to pay some of the humanitarian needs of the guys' wife or children? I say no. The migrants may work for 3 months here and now the company employing them needs to support their families?

Why is this a hot topic? because there are no easy answers.
 
   / If you're causcasian you're in big trouble #85  
Re: If you\'re causcasian you\'re in big trouble

On the subject of a law declaring English as the official language. Would this not be the equivalent of the statement on US paper currency: "This note is legal tender for all debts public and private."

In other words: "English is the official language for all contracts public and private."

The loacl Piggly Wiggly MUST accept dollars - they are not required to accept Pesos, or Euros, or Yen even if the customer only has Pesos.
Contracts written in English are enforcible even if one of the parties only reads Spanish, German or Japanese.
It is incumbent on the customer to find somewhere to exchange Pesos for Dollars. It is incumbent on the participants in a contract to find someone to read English.
 
   / If you're causcasian you're in big trouble #86  
Re: If you\'re causcasian you\'re in big trouble

Regarding Canada...<font color=blue>but for now despite her best intentions they can only lend their valued assistance. </font color=blue> I guess this is my main point. The US is responsible for the US!! There is NO ONE in Canada, or I would suspect any other nation, that desires the US to "look after us" when it comes to culture and "western values". Canada isn't "lending valued assistance" when it comes to Canadian culture and values!! Frankly, if you look at the literature of the conservative groups who are fighting to support Judeo-Christian values....much of the blame for the degradation of society is placed squarely on the shoulders of Hollywood and the American courts who "set precedent" in left wing court cases. If the US wants to lead in the protection of western values and culture, they should do so by example...the best type of leadership. Being a military superpower really has nothing to do with it.

<font color=blue>more particularly Christianity is on a world wide decline, only here in the US are the numbers holding roughly steady</font color=blue> Here is some Canadian data:

begin quote
"The results of an Angus Reid/CTV/Globe and Mail survey released today show that greater than eight in ten (84%) Canadians say they believe in God. Not only do many Canadians believe in God, but two thirds (67%) say that their religious faith is very important to their day to day life. In terms of specific beliefs, seven in ten (69%) Canadians say agree with the statement "through the life, death and resurrection of Jesus, God provided a way for the forgiveness of my sins." Canada is predominantly a Christian country. More than three quarters (77%) of Canadians identify themselves with a Christian church.

These are the findings of an Angus Reid/CTV/Globe and Mail poll conducted between April 11th and April 16th 2000. The poll is based on a randomly selected sample of 1,500 adult Canadians. With a sample of this size, the results are considered accurate to within ± 2.5 percentage points, 19 times out of 20, of what they would have been had the entire adult Canadian population been polled." end quote

Kevin
 
   / If you're causcasian you're in big trouble #87  
Re: If you\'re causcasian you\'re in big trouble

Harv,
Don't get me wrong. I absolutely agree with you in that by paying rent, they are taxpayers just like everybody else and are entitled to the benefits of property owners including public schools, police protection, etc. My main beef is with those who are here illegally, and with those who want all the benefits of being an American all the while not considering themselves to be Americans. And these folks are the ones who disproportionately are putting a strain on the system with their need for free health benefits, more police protection, ESL teachers, etc. And people who refuse to adopt to American ways, language, and culture probably hurt their own children the most. Think of how many Hispanic kids who were born here, but never learn to speak English until they are in school. Do you believe they are at a disadvantage? They are further isolated, making them comfortable only with their own kind.

As to the Worldcom implosion, this will affect their shareholders and employees first and foremost, while the overall impact on the public in general will be negligible. The market will be eager to step up and fill in the voids left by their services, and I seriously doubt if very many of these employees will end up on welfare as a result of Worldcom's demise. Believe me, there will be no public bailout of Worldcom like the congress keeps doing for Amtrak.
 
   / If you're causcasian you're in big trouble #88  
Re: If you\'re causcasian you\'re in big trouble

<font color=blue>where the unemployed (typically Mexicans) hang out looking for day jobs. As it was explained to me, if you need some physical labor you can pick up these guys. They will do the work, you pay cash drop them back off and you go on your merry way with no oblications. Harv, is this common where you are located</font color=blue>

livincountry, I'll answer part of your question to Harv. It's been 40 years since I lived in Plano, so I don't know what goes on there, but in farmin' country where I live, that's a very common practice.
 
   / If you're causcasian you're in big trouble #89  
Re: If you\'re causcasian you\'re in big trouble

Livincountry,
In regard to what you said about the dayworkers in Plano. In the neighboring city of Garland, the city recently built a day labor center just for these workers. It seems that so many men were hanging out at the local convenience stores and gas stations that the city decided it would be better to build them their own shiny new place to hang out at. Another example of our tax dollars at work....to benefit (primarily) illegal immigrants.
 
   / If you're causcasian you're in big trouble #90  
Re: If you\'re causcasian you\'re in big trouble

WVBill, Thats a big, YUP! Sounds about right to me. Someone would have to be pretty far into the conspiracy theory fringe to turn your succinct outline into an embryonic **** police state instrument.

Tower of babel anyone? We need a single language of comerce and law. Anyone here ever talk to any higher placed Canadian armed forces folks about the advantages of having French speaking troops in their ranks? Way back in colonial times there were different currencies proliferating and it made for a great deal of restriction on commerce, a basic pain in the a$$. I embrace multiculturalism to a degree and feel that our culture is enritched by an infusion of the best that other cultures has to offer (hybrid vigor again). On the lighter side it gives us more holidays and excuses for parties. On the serious side, I trully believe we need a common language to help unite us and I decry the tendency so prevalent of late to see groups demanding to be equal but separate. Are immigrants coming here to become Americans, found a new country, or to try to make us a colony of their country?

Back in the bad old days of slavery in the US, votes were cast when states formed to decide on whether to be slave or free. In advance of these votes, huge groups of people were mobilized and moved into the area to effect the outcome of the vote. As some areas of our country become heavily impacted with separatist minded immigrants they become defacto colonies of "the homeland". The ability to communicate in English lessens the need to band together to survive as survival is enhanced by being able to communicate with the rest of the adopted country. Making English the official language fosters and encourages the use of English especially in the case of contracts and other legal documents. Truly, having contracts and legal documents in many languages and combinations of languages would be a quagmire in parallel with the tower of Babel. Why encourage it?

In the US we publish voting materials in more languages and dialects than I care to count. If those voters can't understand English, how is it that they learn enough to cast an informed ballot? We need to ween folks a bit toward a basic ability to communicate in the language of the land, English. Making English the official language of the land is a good positive step toward keeping our contry united through commumications between and amoung all our peoples.


In California there are many suporters of a movement to take back the state. No, to my knowlege they are not planning an armed revolution even if at rallies you hear things like, "viva la raza, viva la revolucion!" Acording to what I could glean from their posters and talking to "folks" in the bario, it is a movement to remake/retake Califia for spanish speaking hispanics. Anyone out there know more they would share? I haven't been there in over a year.

I have seen nothing, even from the most radically conservative or the lunatic fringe white supremacists to indicate that anyone wants to make speaking a foreign language a crime.

Try to imagine what it would be like to tune in to CNN and watch the house or senate in session trying to legislate and debate in all the languages that could be spoken by representatives. If English is not formally the official language of the US then a representative from the bario could reasonably expect to make his presentations in Spanish and let everyone deal with it. Likewise any of the various asian American reps could expect the same. Should we have live simultaneous translations for all the possible languages that could be used. What about the congressional record? Print the foreign AND translated versions. What about dissagreements over the translation? What counts, legally, the translation or the original "foreign" text? Why would a sane person want to go down this road?

We need a common unifying language of state and commerce. We need it guaranteed now and in the future! English is accepted as that language internationally and for the most part in the US. What sort of misplaced ideal of "treating everyone fairly" could possibly be worth the horendous confusion and wedge which would be driven between citizens of this nation if we made all languages legal. Canada had quite enough trouble with just one state and one other language. How would it be if all languages were legal in all 50 states? Not reasonable you say? How do you decide which languages to discriminate against? You can't just have English and Spanish. What about Latvian immigrants or Botswanans? This soon becomes the argument of the beard or at least reductio ab adsurdum if not both.

WVBill, thanks for your clarifying comments. It forced me to think a bit more and realize just how truly one sided the logic really is on this issue. I'm still waiting to hear a clear explanation of why recognizing all languages as legal in the US would be better than just one.

Patrick
 
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