Injector Timing Pump Question

[SevenCorners]

All,
I am waiting to get my new Injector Pump for my 224. While waiting I decided to read up all the posts on Injector timing. Well there are not too many.... I went to JohnsTractor site and read his posts but that has only gotten me confused.
Please feel free to correct me in how I understand the procedure works.
Assumptions
1. New injector install
2. I can't find timing marks on crank pulley [where are they???]
3. Marks on injector gear and cam gear do not line up as described in engine manual. Must have jumped out when injector pump seat broke.

Procedure
1. Place engine at TDC by turning engine counterclockwise until #1 intake/exhaust valves push rods spin freely.
2. Install new injector pump onto engine block
3. Install gearing onto injector pump shaft, leave bolts lose for adjustment.
Now here is where I get confused.
4. Unscrew #1 hard line atop injector pump
5. Advance engine 18 degrees by turning pulley counterclockwise [how do I know where 18 degrees is?]
6. Watch for fuel welling up in #1 fuel port. Fuel should well up if not fine tune injector timing with the 3 bolts on the injector gearing, either advance or ****** the injector timing.
7. Repeat steps 5 and 6 until timing is dialed in.
8. Reassemble all remain parts, bleed fuel lines and start engine.
9. Observer engine running, looking for excessive black smoke, injector timing needs to be retarded, or unusual knocking, timing needs to be slightly advanced.
10. Button everything up and I am done!

Now what am I missing, what do I have wrong? Any tips you can pass on? Should I not even attampt this on my own?

 

[bluechip]

its not too bad, been a while since we did one, the object is to get the injector pump just starting to push fuel out of the number one port when the crankshaft is about 18 deg. befor top dead center.

You can remove a small cover on the belhousing and get timing marks there if you cannot see the ones on the front pully.

position engine at 18deg. advance position.
with the gear removed, turn pump till fuel begins to rise in number one, repplace gear, remembering that it is helical so will rotate as installed so start it in a position that it will end up with the slots in the gear will end up over the threaded holes in the hub (the part that cratered on yours).

Trial and error is allowed. It will run quite a way out of time, so you can keep trying till you get the proper sound, (normal diesel "knock" not too loud (needs retarding) or too quiet (needs advnacing) the exhaust smoke will be almost gone also when timed correctly (except when accellerating or under heavy load).

you can run it with the cover off the front of the pump gear, a little oil may splash out, but it will save time if you want to try different settings.

Note, one one of the fue lines that attach to the injector pump has a check valve in the banjo fitting, be sure the new one has this check valve in the same location. We had one switched and it took s a while to figure out why the engine would start but not stay running.

 

[SevenCorners]

Chip,
A couple of questions.
1. How do you know when engine is at 18 deg? Is there a mark on flywheel for 18 deg
2. You said, position engine at 18deg. advance position.
with the gear removed, turn pump till fuel begins to rise in number one, repplace gear,
Do you turn the injector pumps shaft? Isn't this very hard to turn? How do you turn it? What tool do you use, visegrips?


Thanks

 

[bluechip]

As I recall, we found an 18 deg mark on the crank pully. There are lots of marks on the flywheel but since we did not use them I cant say how they are labled (if they are labled).

I hate to post this publicy because it is not the best practice, but we used the nut on the end of the shaft and carefully rotated the pump with a socket. A better way may be to install the pump and gear anywhere, turn the engine over slowly until the fuel in no. 1 begins to raise, then remove the three bolts holding the gear and re-position the engine to 18deg and replace the bolts.

If you can find TDC (#1 compression stroke) and there is no 18 degree mark, you could calculate the circumference of the pulley ( i think it pie or 3.14 times diameter?) measure back 20% of that distance around the edge from the TDC mark and that will be 18 degrees.

that should get you close enough to run, then you can adjust from there. not enough power and too much smoke, advance it some, hard knocking sound, ****** it some, etc.

 

[SevenCorners]

Where is the small cover on the bellhousing located? Is it on the top? Doesn't the clutch obscure the view of the timing marks?

 

[Harrygoodwrench]

Thought I chime in. Yes there are degree marks on front balancer. You may have to use a scotch brite pad to remove paint and use a mirror to see them. The balancer you will have 3 bolts. The degree marks will be above one of these 3 bolts. There should be a pointer sticking out of front cover to use as the reference point for the degree numbers. I believe if memory serves the degree numbers go from zero to 30 degrees(thats before TDC) (Top Dead Center). I guess 18 degrees before TDC seems to be a close spec as stated but can time for best operation. As I stated above I use the 3 bolts to do valve adjustment, once I identified which bolt was the #1 TDC I painted it so now I just turn engine over watching intake valve and when it starts closein the next time the "painted" bolt lines up with the pointer its #1 TDC. Then after doing those valves turn 240 degrees(2 bolt heads) and adjust #3, then 2 bolt heads(240 degrees) and last set of valves #2. Basically once you find #1 TDC you should only have to turn engine a max of 2 revolutions to run all the valves. Pretty simple actually as its all math. REMEMBER to turn crankshaft in a CLOCKWISE direction when viewed from front of engine. Trans in neutral, Put compression release in "released" position and with fuel shut off "Pulled out to stop" you can use those 3 small crank pulley bolts to turn engine over but go slow. Find your 18 degree mark and line it up with pointer, ther should be some markings on gears, install pump, install pump into gear just enough to give resistance to turning, and follow the rest of directions. as you pump primer rotate the pump until you see a "swelling" of fuel in the #1 fitting, tighten bolts. This is a trial and error. If ya have to recheck, back up pulley and then go forward to 18 degrees and recheck the same but might be easier to do the fine tune after getting it running like Bluechip said. Don't worry, we're here to coach you on.

 

[Harrygoodwrench]

Seven corners, I found an error in my above post. In fact there are 6 bolts on the front pulley but only 3 line up with there respective cylinders(on a 3 cylinder). I apologize.
I had to change my pulley when new as it had a small piece broken off edge. I painted the marks and took a pic so you can see the degree marks. Don't know if you can see #'s so I marked with a paint pen. If you look at marks the RED mark I made is #1 TDC(Top Dead Center), the respective marks to the right of TDC are BTDC(Before Top Dead Center)green=10 BTDC, blue 20 BTDC, etc. The degrees are there and in 2 degree increments. You want the beginning of injection to start before the respective piston reaches the top of its stroke so the fuel develops max pressure to push the piston down.
I found a post from Nortrac on how to adjust pump timing so I've included that too. Sorry about my error and hope this helps. links below. Tried to post my pic, but too big so here is a link to my webshots if I do this right so you can see the timing degree marks.

http://community.webshots.com/user/harrygoodwrench

http://www.capital.net/~disc1/engine/AdjustmentFuel%20Injection.htm

http://nortrac.proboards26.com/index.cgi?board=Engine1&num=1076870997&action=display&start=15

http://www.johnstractor.homestead.com/InjPumpInstall.html

 

[SevenCorners]

I got it working!! Wow what a pain. There was all kind of air in the lines. I must have pumped that darn pump for 4 hours. I cracked all the lines and finally got all the air out. It was fairly out of time once it started. I must have tried about 15 times to "fine" tune it. I wish there was a more presice method. I still think timing is not correct. It is smoking and knocking just a little too much. I will ****** the timing some tomorrow. I had something interesting happen that I hope is associated with the timing. The temp is now too high. Normally it was around 80 on the temp gauge. Now it is very close to 100 and the red zone. I drained the radiator when I changed the injector pump. Made sure it was full after completed. Any suggestions on what it could be?

Harry, great timing on the posts. I used yours and Chip directions to the letter. I will fine tune it tomorrow using just the three bolts on the outside of the injector pump. It is a pain taking the cover back off the front of the engine.

One suggestion be careful once the engine gets hot, I burnt my arm pretty bad on the side of the exhaust. Making my posting quite difficult.

 

[bluechip]

Allright! Glad you got it going, Running too advanced may be contributing to your temp. see what it does after you are happy with the timing. Now you can check it by just turning over the engine until the fuel in number 1 pump socket starts to raise and see where the timing marks are, then adjust acordingly.

Probably took so much pumping because of the hill. Gravity will normally help a lot.

You can run with the front cover off, a little oil will splash out, but it will save a lot of time as you finetune.

 

[F100Panel]

I've been watching this post with great interest. My 224 was WAY out of time/running late & hard starting. When I thought I had it in time I could feel the cylinders beating in the floor boards & I THOUGHT a little too much diesel rattle at Idle. I retarded it some, after that she ran Smooooth & still started good. I thought I was Ok.. The roadway outside my driveway is a 10% grade for 1/2 mile. I took the tractor up the road to a friends house for some work there & going up the road in 2nd gear hi range she had all she could do to keep in the green range on the tach. With that the muffler paint started smoking.. Too much heat usually means late timing... Add to that the other day I walked up to the tractor while she was idling at about 1000 rpm & in the sun I could see a smoke trail in the exhaust.. Over the summer I was lucky enough to see another member on this boards 224/Harrygoodwrench. His tractor starts far better, runs SWEEEEET & I can feel his cylinders beating in the footboards when setting in the seat... I believe based on what I describe I'm running late on my timing even though my temperature gauge says the engine is fine??

 

[bluechip]

F100 has a good point, you want to have a good diesel rattle at idle, it should not be quiet at idle. If it is too advanced you will get a hard knocking at higher rpm. Best to check the static method one more time and see where the mark is when the fuel begins to rise in no 1 before you decide which way to tweak it.

 

[GRUMPA]

I wonder if this same procedure could be used on my kama 354c. If it can I think I'll copy (print out ) the post.

 

[SevenCorners]

F100 the same thing happened after the second time I thought the timing was correct. I went up a hill in low second and it would not pull it. The engine sounded really good, no smoke, quite... just no power. I advanced the timing a couple of more times but as I said before I don't think it is just right. I have a little too much smoke at idle, engine is running hot, valves don't sound too bad. I will probably ****** the timing just a little bit. Something that really bugs me about adjusting the timing is there is no way to see how much you are adjusting it. It is not exact like a gas engine. Shoot a timing light move the distributor till marks line up and your spot on.... With this engine I have adjusted and readjusted 10, 15 20 times......

 

[bluechip]

Grumpa,
Yes, the proceudure is the same on the TS series KAMAs

 

[Harrygoodwrench]

Seven Corners, they do make meters to test diesel timing but the are big bucks. They mostly use a clamp on pulse probe that clamps on to the #1 injector line and senses the pulse, with a glued on sensor on the crank pulley it can give the injection timing on the meter. There are some that use a photo-voltic cell that goes in place of glow plug also, pricey equipment anyways.
I'm reasonably sure you can use the 3 mounting bolts to fine tune the timing. I suggest taking a chisel/punch and making reference marks on the pump mounting face and front cover. This way you can know which way and how far abouts you went. Looking at my pic of the front gear train(which is too big to post) if you rotate the top of pump inwards toward the engine thats advancing timing. Away would be retarding.
Like I said the mark will give you a reference point where you now have it and you can just move a little at a time and go opposite direction if performance declines. Keep us informed.

 

[SevenCorners]

Harry,
Thanks I took your advice on the punch. I tried three settings this afternoon and all seem slightly off. When I first started it up this morning it took longer than normal say 15 seconds of starter. So I figure I am too far advanced. I take off the cover, punch the pulley for my mark, remove the #1 fitting and turn pulley till fuel just begins to well. It looked like 22 on gauge it is so tight in there I wish there were more room. Anyway I retarded timing to what I thought was 16, started it and it ran like a champ, hah I said I got it. Not so fast, I did not bolt it up having learned lesson yesterday. I took it down to the bottom of the hill and tried to pull up hill in 2nd, no power and all kinds of knocking it was not happy. I got to the top and rechecked timing I have messed up the 3 washers because when I rechecked it looked like 10 instead of 16. They must have moved. I redid and set it back to 16-18... started and idled fine although a little on quite side and still running hot. Once it thoughtlythoughtthoughthoughtsthoughtlessthroughthoughtfulthoughtlesslythoughtlessnessthouthoughtfullythighthoughtfulnessthongtheurgistbrought warmed up I tried to give it gas and it really refused, well you guessed it too much retarded, the bolts are slipping once gear/engine gets warm. I am going to get some new washers tomorrow. I gave up and will hit it again tomorrow. Cheap Chinese steel!!!

 

[Harrygoodwrench]

I also heard about those "cheapo" washers too. I don't know why "prevailing torque" nuts would not work. I think they would be "cats A$$" the type with a flat washer part of the nut(metric of course). Bet I have dozens of them around but never the exact size ya need at the time and then a month later find a whole bunch of them. LOL.
Stick with it and persevere, All I can say is if ya get yours set up like mine (which I haven't had to touch)(knock on wood) she will start and run like a real "beast". The things I do with mine are what you would think a 30 hp unit would be the minimum, but there is a limit. Scared myself a few times take my word. Kinda like the "little train that could" push, push and then the trouble happens. I've developed a "sense" on when to back off. Don't want to damage it or get hurt but it can be done all to easy.
The "overheating" or running hotter. Do you suppose the thermostat decided to just crap out? Stranger things have happened. Old timer saying (which I'm one of em) if ya take thermostat out of coolant it will likely fail . Never believed it myself with 30 years mechanic experience but some say its true. Who am I to argue.

 

[greg_g]

</font><font color="blue" class="small">( Seven Corners, they do make meters to test diesel timing but the are big bucks. )</font>
Harbor Freight has THIS one on sale right now for eighty bucks.

My Mercedes pump is timed with the drip method. The flywheel is set for 24 BTDC, then this $25

drip tool is installed in place of the #1 hard line. The engine is then cranked, and the injection pump rotated, till the drip tool is dropping 1 drip per second. Amazing how simple some of the hardest jobs end up to be.

//greg//

 

[Harrygoodwrench]

Deju vu............I remember using the same method on Mack truck engines 25+ years ago. ****, so long ago except if I remember (which I don't always) it was 8 drops per second or so, called the drop/drip method with the gooseneck line on #1 injector line.
Some things change, some things don't. It worked so why not? /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

 

[F100Panel]

Hey guys.. I saw the last post for the drip timming tool.. That may well be an answer but $80 for a 1 time use thing is a tough bullet to bite though likely a LOT cheaper than having it done at a shop... I can transport my machine most can't now that I think of it & $80 is cheaper than the cost of hauling... Butt..... When I had my tractor running good/could feel the cylinders beating in my feet like HarryG's tractor I had set the static timming ( watch the fuel rise in the oil line cavity method ) to 22 degrees BTDC. THAT made me uncomfortable. Static setting it at 18 degres BTDC is giving me all the symptoms of being retarded NO NOT ME!!! The tractor!!! /forums/images/graemlins/mad.gif I suggest static timming to 18 degrees BTDC ( lets be realistic static timing ain't gonna give the same results at 1800rpm.. Then theres the human factor of the eye looking for fuel to move up in the line well/something thats gotta be different at 1800rpm...) & using that as a starting tool & then get the tractor warmed up & while runing rotate the pump assembly a little till she sounds proper may well be the best low buck cure.. I likely won't get to it for some time/my scheduale is overwhelming for the next several months/likely won't even run the tractor except to move it out of the way... But I'm fishing for opinions on my theory ( if I was sure of myself I would not be posting this /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif )or if anyone tries the theory out what THEY think of how it turned out... The more I think on this maybe the static timming start point ought to be 22 degrees BTDC?????????? I maye go back & try that...