Inquiring Minds!

   / Inquiring Minds! #21  
Why should we care if anyone gets a technical education anymore? Our government leaders have all said the "Global free market" will provide every thing we need. I think we should immediately cease all farm subsidies and food production progams why should we care? Certainly Brazil can feed us cheaper then we can. I don't think we should build any defense items in this country either, I bet China could build the F-22 for 2-3 million a copy instead of the 200 million it will costto build it in the US . Why not bring in a few hundred thousand doctors from around the world and really reduce our medical cost? I heard a nurse in Costa Rica makes 20-30 dollar per day that is what we need!!! While we are at it a lawyers from India could really lower our legal costs, and imagine how our computing costs would drop if we brought in a million programmers at the same time. You know when you think about it I don't think we need to teach anything in this country at all, it would be so much easier and cheaper to let the rest of the world do everything for us. " Let them eay cake, don't they have cake?"
 
   / Inquiring Minds! #22  
Well, a couple of other teachers have posted up here, so I guess I might as well wade in. I'm in Ohio. We have a vocational school system here for those kids who, for one reason or another, intend to go into some trade or career not requiring college.

For the most part people here listen to the statistics that support the idea that the more education you have the greater your income will be as an adult. Therefore, the big push is to get the kids ready for some kind of continuing education after high school, be it a trade school, 2 year associate degree, or a 4 year college education followed by grad school. The state mandated testing program pretty much follows this idea, and schools have their "report cards" published to show parents how well the schools are educating their kids. There is a great deal of pressure from the state to continually increase performance on the standardized tests.

There is also pressure to get the test scores up since the voters here can pretty much control the finances of the district through non-support of bond issues and levys for the schools. As a result, our curriculum is more or less driven by the state mandated standardized testing program, which has little or no technical, hands-on sections.

The kids who do like to get their hands dirty and make things tend to learn it at home if they're lucky, or in our wood tech, electricity, Ag classes, or go to the career center. We have them do some hands on build it and make it work things in science classes, but it's not working on real hardware.

I don't think the blame can fairly be placed on the schools, at least not in this area. We have seen a lot of manufacturing jobs leave with predictable economic consequences while white collar jobs have stayed and done well -- at least until Rubbermaid was bought out. The blue collar workers are hurting a lot more than the white collar set with the degrees. Parents want their kids to be in the more secure income segment, so push for college education. The state pushes theoretical, bookish kinds of knowledge through the mandated tests. You simply can't graduate without passing the tests.

We in the schools are forced to concentrate our efforts on making sure the lowest performing kids pass the test, with the result that we don't have time to work with or worry about those who have passed them and are hungry for more options in their high school education. We are being forced to educate everyone to the same low level of mediocrity, much to our disgust and dismay. It's not a question of what we want to do or where we want to take the kids eager to learn, but rather how do we motivate, indoctrinate, or intimidate those who resist learning into getting a passing score on the tests. Of the students in our school who have not passed the tests, it is usually by two or three points out of 400. This is complicated by the fact that the number of points needed to pass each section is continually adjusted by the state based on the scores of the students who took any particular version of the test that year. There is a state decided and changing rate of failure to which we are not privy and which is not actually known until the tests are scored, but no matter how well everyone does, a certain percentage will fail. Teachers, especially new ones, feel a great deal of pressure to get their kids to pass the test lest they lose their jobs. Simultaneously, the teachers are required to continually go to grad school, develop, maintain, and keep on file an "Individual Professional Development Plan", and take periodic rigorous tests to maintain their license. This while spending their days working with kids who come from wildly disparate home situations and bring any number of out of school problems into school with them and being required to perform an increasing number of tasks formerly done in the home like teaching the elementary kids how to blow their nose. All this for a starting salary in our district of less than $30k after at least 4 years of college and the attendant lack of income and increase in personal indebtedness.

I know this getting really long, so let me finish up by saying that I am fairly handy in an all around sort of way. I can pound nails, cut and hang boards, drywall, shingles, run wiring and plumbing (threaded, soldered, plastic), do a fair share of wrenching on motorized things and pretty much fix anything mechanical that breaks, including fabricating a part now and then. I did not learn any of this via a formal education, but learned a lot from my father, a carpenter by trade and ships carpenter in WWII. While going to college, I worked in factories in the summer, picking up stuff from the guys there, too, and messed with my bicycle, wagons, push car, and so on as a kid. In short, my mechanical abilities came from sources other than school. We often expect todays schools to do too many things formerly done in the home and the trend is increasing. How long will it be before someone is decrying the lack of hunting/fishing skills in todays kids and blaming the schools for that, too? Schools were invented for "book-learnin'", not to replace parents. Parents need to decide if their kids should learn to fix what breaks, then show them how it's done. When I taught driver education, I asked the kids how many had driven with their parents -- about half. I asked how many planned to use the family car or one their parents provided. -- about 95%. I asked how many were shown how to change a tire -- none. Where are the parents in all this?
 
   / Inquiring Minds! #23  
5030, I'm very happy you don't teach.
 
   / Inquiring Minds! #24  
kossetx & DeTeacha:

Honestly, I would make a poor teacher. I have little patience or time to explain what I do, how I did it or how I arrived at a certain conclusion.

Years ago, I ran a shop in Westlake, Ohio and I had 40 employees under my supervision. I found that to be an uncomfortable situation for me and consequently, I quit, never to go back to that venue again.

My tolerance for the up and coming generation is somewhat of a stand back and watch attitude. I am disappointed by this generations lack of manual skills and their apparent lack of enthusiasm to learn a trade but rather than a trade, play with computers and video games.

What the solution is, I don't know. It's all conjecture as to whether or not we will survive as an industrial nation when our youth seems to be more pointed toward a service society.

The problem is, we are loosing our middle class, the class that supports this country and makes it great. I just watched Mick Jagger at Ford Field. 60 years young. During his set, he made the comment "we could have done this at SuperBowl I". How true.

In this country today are we playing a Superbowl we can't win?

I don't know the answer and neither do you. I can only hope that the outcome is positive for our kids sake.
 
   / Inquiring Minds! #25  
Bugstruck- this is the thing that really gets me. I've been a contractor for 32 years, and for several of those at different times have tried to hire out of the local voc school. I always get a runaround - "wrong time of the semester, program's all fully utilized, etc." rather than any cooperation. The IDEA that going to college helps everyone is not bad if it actually DOES help some who are inclined to benefit that way. But there's plenty of kids who would waste everyone's time and money going. There's good money in the trades, yet you can't convince any kid it's worth going into. College prep kids still look down on trade kids just like 40 years ago when I was in high school. My shop classes were well taught and the best time I had in school, but looked down on by most. It took me a few years to admire the work myself, because of the indoctrination. It's easy now, and I talk up the trades as profession any time I can.
This thread should have "rant" attached to it somehow, as it seems to encourage that. I'll stop now.
Jim
 
   / Inquiring Minds! #26  
</font><font color="blue" class="small">( I am disappointed by this generations lack of manual skills and their apparent lack of enthusiasm to learn a trade but rather than a trade, play with computers and video games.)</font>

This country has evolved tho to be the LEADER in the filed of computer programming and "white collar" jobs. Most americans anymore thumb their nose at "blue collar" work.

The "blue" jobs are being taken by immigrants who are hungry to take up the void. Honestly THAT is the hard working heritage this country was built on ... knock it or not, but my heritage is from "okies" who worked fields when they got to california. As such, I applaud the immigrants who come to do the same (trust me ... "legals" aren't waiting in line for those jobs, they're standing at the corner begging).
 
   / Inquiring Minds! #27  
5030, I'm sorry our youth dissapoints you. I do believe, and I try to help. My point was that I'm sure my elders looked at me and my peers when I was in public school and wondered about our future with my generation. They had a right. We were not them. I personally was not a good student. I however realized one day that I was lacking and made the choice to better myself. As a teacher, I make sure that I educate, but just as importantly, I try to motivate my students to be better than me.
 
   / Inquiring Minds! #28  
About 10 years ago one of the local high school shop teachers was teaching the kids to build wooden snowshoes from scratch. I'm not sure if he's still doing it, but that takes a LT more talent than we needed to build the old "pump' lamps which were in vogue 30 years ago.

Still, it does seem kids have a much different idealology... I'm still a little POed after wasting 3 hours today finding and deleting a minopr computer virus which my Norton's didn't detect. /forums/images/graemlins/mad.gif

It must be rough to have nothing better to do than find ways to **** up people's computers.
 
   / Inquiring Minds! #29  
Jim, Same in Maryland with the Vo-Tech schools. Not much there. Many schools have dropped it entirely. We've hired maybe 3 students in 10 years, out of about 150 new hires. Two of the three are good long term employees though, so when you get them the percentages are great. 120 of those 150 new hires are gone. As you know turn-over is unbelievably high and we offer employment packages at the top of the Construction sector for our area. It a good area too (Maryland/DC/Northern VA. market).

I agree with much of what DaTeacha said. The teachers and administrators are handcuffed by these testing standards. They sure read good when the President insists on accountability, but they can be crippling when filtered through and implemented by the State bureaucracies and School Boards.

Truth is now days we need both straight blue collar workers and blue collar workers with advanced skill sets. Computer (all our high through-put machinery has them) and CAD knowledge are a must. We can train them if they have basic technical knowledge, but you can't conceive of geometric shapes, materials usage, and measurements unless you have fundamental math and hand skills. So one without the other is a zero.

My father was a Salesman and way worse than fair with his hands. So DeTeacha's idea that schools can't teach it and that they must get it from home is where we part. My foundation was school and summer break construction work. I didn't do VoTech but my College Prep classes set the stage. 18 months of Community College and I knew that wasn't where my heart was. I was good at it and hated it. Couldn't imagine being a Comptroller or VP at the time, even though that's where my hammer eventually took me. Funny how that worked out. So the kids need good technical skill sets and some exposure to construction. Our field supervisors make north of $60K and long employ Carpenters are north of $50K straight time and some well past that with overtime and most of them never set foot in college. Shop Foreman and CAD supervisiors are well past both. We compete well against many white collar jobs with great employment packages, the word just isn't out yet. The educators have their heads in the sand. They are 5 years behind what's real.
 
   / Inquiring Minds! #30  
I have a Agricultural Mechanic certificate at home somewhere from my vocational elective years ago. It was designed for tractor and assoc. machine repair but we mostly worked on push mowers and auto's. Needless to say no one would want me under their tractor hood /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif
 
   / Inquiring Minds! #31  
Basically I tell my kids the following, you're future is already written. There are large corporation "think tanks or brainstormers" that spend millions of dollars hoping that you make the choices you're making now. There are the few that excel and learn and take the world by storm, then there's those that just squeak by, and then there are those that don't care and are more rebellious. Basically the ol' upper, middle, and lower class. In my experience, no matter what this world has to offer, it always comes back to, you get what you put into it and if you've put a lot in and receive nothing, then you still have done your job and there's no worries and no regrets. How this relates to kids now-n-days is that school is school and always will be, but life is life and there in lies the experiences that kids will carry around with them forever. So when you see a kid that appears to be void of any "mechanical" skills, take a minute or two to show them a couple of tips and tricks. Who knows, you may have just helped the next inventor of the 22nd century wheel. /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
yes there is a pun intended there.

Steve
 
   / Inquiring Minds! #32  
I'm glad to hear that there are numerous opportunities out there for those without that magical piece of paper called a college degree to make a good living. I tell my kids that, but the majority of what they hear does not support the idea, nor do the statistics.

I've been in this education business for 39 years now. I've seen all kinds of students and all kinds of kids. You're right in saying they get out of it what they put into it, just like anything else.

The thing we can't lose sight of is the simple fact that the only constant in this world is change, and that's constantly accelerating. Subject matter in academic courses will be outdated quickly, just like today's computer is old in a year or less, but the ability to learn is what we need to push.

Kids with a knack for hands-on work, mechanical stuff, etc. need to be nurtured and informed about the high paying jobs they can get into. Our school system, unfortunately, is run by people I call "educationists" who just seem to know better than everyone else how to do anything, including teaching. Most of them have maybe 5 years in a classroom, and that was quite a while ago and pretty much irrelevant to today's school. But, guess who sets policy?

How bad is it? Several years ago, when Ohio was just starting down the path to today's version of the mandated tests, some genius in Columbus, upon hearing that kids in the inner city districts did poorly on the tests, decided that the thing to make them work was -----are you sitting down? ------- A televised pep assembly! This idiot figured all the kids who were out on the street instead of in school would magically come to school just to watch the assembly on TV, then be inspired to do a great job on the test.

I better stop now, since I know you guys don't believe that, despite the fact that it's true. Besides, I could go on for days relating incidents of bureaucratic bungling and idiotic actions ordered by the educationists. Just don't call them educators, because they interfere with the process.
 
   / Inquiring Minds! #33  
DaTeacha,

You may be ranting a bit, but your right!! I see it from a skewed/corporate vantage point, but it reads the same.

By the way.... Thanks for what you do. For staying in the trenches and not giving up the fight. The kids need good educators with practical sense. When we complain it's not really about the students, it's us we are really talking about here. We let it happen and haven't stood in there and mixed it up, so to speak, as the educators have. Then we wonder why we see less than spectacular results. You teachers need some help from other sources that your not getting. Not that you don't get parent's involvement, just not always in a constructive way.

I like that educationists label. They've earned it. TV pep rally.... Wonder how much education it took to make that brilliant decision? /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif Too much, no doubt.

Now for the real question from an Inquiring Mind. Will any of this make my tractor run any better? /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

EDIT. I think I need to go back to school based on some of my spelling /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif
 
   / Inquiring Minds! #34  
I have pretty much of a philosophical view of the education... keep in mind what I am about to say includes only the kids willing to learn.

With each generation of children, combined with the advancement of technology, there will be more and more specialization starting at earlier and earlier ages. Technology doesn't benefit (much) from the instinct that we are born with (unlike many animals). 99.9% of useful knowledge for us is learned, and as our technology advances, it causes people to have to specialize just to be able to cope with the huge amounts of knowledge necessary.
 
   / Inquiring Minds! #35  
I got into this discussion a little late, but I have to confess that I am guilty as charged. I think I'm probably the very beginnings of this up and coming generation that you all are talking about.

I am the kid who took all of the honors and AP classes along with music and all of the other stuff that "Looks good on a College Application". I really wanted to take shop or woodworking, but I literally couldn't because of all the classes I needed to take to keep me on track for college. My classes, music, and grades all paid off because I got through most of college with at least half of my tuition paid through scholarships.

I loved college and the things I learned. I have been able to get a job that I love that pays fair and leaves me time for my hobbies, but it's only lately that I have been able to learn some of the other stuff like mechanics, woodworking, and, of course, tractors.

I've had the rare pleasure of having some close friends that have taught me some of this. I had a neighboor while I was in college that would let me come "help" him work on cars. There was an older guy who lives up the road from my parents that took me under his wing after I bought my first wood lathe and taught me the basics. A co-worker at a ranch I worked on taught me how to weld.

Now I have all of you to laugh at my ignorance and then patiently talk me through learning the basics of tractors, implements, etc.

It's these relationships that have given me the little bit of mechanical inclination that I have. I hope that I can return the favor someday by teaching my own kids or someone else's how to enjoy working with your hands.

I wouldn't have done anything differently, but I wish I could have. I guess I just wish there were more hours in the day. I guess that I just have to hope that I live long enough to learn everything that I want to.
 
   / Inquiring Minds! #36  
15 plus years ago in high school I took the basics and lazed through with a C average. I feel then that nothing was offered above my basic education that could not be taught in 2 years of high school. Why could I not spend my final two years in real vocational training if that was my chosen path?
I went to college after HS, the AG stuff to try to pick up a few mechanical skills and to fill in my schedule with something interesting.
 
   / Inquiring Minds! #37  
Hopefully others will be encouraged by this thought. I recently attended a NASA Educator Workshop at the Marshall Spaceflight Center in Alabama. One of the presenters was a lead engineer at the facility who had grown up in the region. He was in charge of hiring new engineers. His ideal "hires" were B/C engineering students who grew up on a farm. 4.0 students scared the heck out of him and usually couldn't interact well in problem-solving situations. He said the farm folks made the best engineers; bar none! The farm provided them with invaluable, practical, think-on-your-feet experiences that connected the world of how things actually work (behave) to the world of how things are supposed to work. As science educator, I've seen our school's best and brightest struggle to follow assembly instructions for lab set up when another student could just look at the equipment and know how it needed to be set up. Just like there are various athletic talents, there are a wide variety of mental talents. Life isn't about "holding all the cards," it is about playing the cards you're dealt well.
 
   / Inquiring Minds! #38  
Switch to ZoneAlarm, I haven't had a problem since I did.
Farwell
 
   / Inquiring Minds! #39  
One of my favorite examples of "book-learned" mechanical engineering vs "real-world" involves a young new ME we had hired.

This young guy had designed some enclosure components that when assembled together, looked like crap. Two components that were supposed to align, didn't. He spent two days measuring the prototype and accusing the fabricators that the parts were made wrong somehow (even though he couldn't find any dimensions that were incorrect). He claimed that the parts must be wrong because "everything lines up perfectly in the CAD model!"

Well, it turned out that in the CAD model, he had left a 0.060" clearance around the one part that was removable, just like they teach you in school to make sure it will fit without interference. In CAD, if you leave a clearance underneath a part, it will just float there in space in its "nominal" position. In the real world, gravity will make the top part fall down tight against the other surface.

The young engineer was very surprised to "discover" gravity in the real world.

- Rick
 
   / Inquiring Minds! #40  
Of my four kids, only my youngest daughter took anything remotely resembling a shop class. She was the only girl in the class, and a tall, slender, rather curvascious red head. Not the type you'd expect in shop class. All the guys, instructor included, were delighted to have her in the class, until the instructor started asking questions regarding equipment and its usages. She was ususally the only one who knew the answers. Her explanation when they asked how she knew such things? "I just help my dad". Makes me proud.

And while I'm bragging, all four of them are that way. Two boys, two girls, and they can operate a computer too, but they didn't learn that from me. /forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif
 

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