John Deere 4120 V.S. Kubota Grand L4060 w/ prices

   / John Deere 4120 V.S. Kubota Grand L4060 w/ prices #151  
I know the OP is being polite and patient. But he ain't gonna learn anything about JD4120 vs Kubota GL4060 on this thread. :eek:

This is an excellent point. Maybe we can all just agree that we are happy with our tractors and help the OP with the question he asked.
 
   / John Deere 4120 V.S. Kubota Grand L4060 w/ prices #152  
I've been reading this thread for several days, interested.
Initially, the claims that made Deere and Kubota worth the extra 20-30% were "superior components/quality", but no one was able to substantiate that (I don't imagine it can be). From what I read, no one even attempted to address that claim.


Finally, the Deere fanatics resorted to saying that the clear, indesputable difference was superior ergonomics- something that is ENTIRELY subjective and can't be proven one way of the other.

This whole argument is idiotic, enraging, sad, and somehow still entertaining at the same time. It's like watching a replay of Nancy Pelosi trying to sell Obama-Care.
 
   / John Deere 4120 V.S. Kubota Grand L4060 w/ prices #153  
It is entertaining. Everyone thinks that their brand of tractor represents the best value...or they wouldn't have bought the d@mn thing.
 
   / John Deere 4120 V.S. Kubota Grand L4060 w/ prices #154  
I answered your question with real answer, and because it is correct and promotes the bigger companies it is then considered 'ducking'.

You never answered anything.

I asked if you had been an engineer at any of the tractor companies, to qualify your statements on relative engineering levels. You didn't answer.

I asked if you had ever seen an LS, worked on one, or taken one apart. You didn't answer.

I asked how it made sense that NH charges $8,500 more for a Boomer 50 than LS does for an R4047, when they're the same machine. You didn't answer.

Since you've said that the higher price indicates a better product, I asked how that played out with the Boomer being so much more expensive than the LS....you said higher price equals higher quality, but didn't explain how this could fit the NH/LS scenario.

I spent 12 hours bucking around on my tractor yesterday, and I cant tell you for a fact that the most important quality aspect between tractors is ergonomics. The perfect example is a 1969 Peterbilt 359 versus a 2013 Peterbilt 359. To the average eye these tractors look EXACTLY the same from the outside. However one is almost 45 years older. The difference comes in the interior and the ERGONOMICS. The engineering of the truck is COMPLETELY different. Air ride suspensions, cabs, seats, air assist fifth wheel, make the ride better but then when you turn to the inside you couldn't write down all the changes in a 30 page book. These tractors WILL do similar work, and haul similar loads. However after making a 6,000 mile round trip from NY to California and back I can guarantee that the operator in the 2013 will experience less fatigue and therefore be more efficient.

Wait, now it's ergonomics, not the actual engineering, and quality, of core components like the transmission, differential, or engine that really makes the difference? Is that what you're switching to in a desperate attempt to justify having paid more? Seriously, the best you can do is ergonomics? Sure, ergonomics are worth something, but not 40-50% more...not even close. I can run my LS all day long, and could do the same with any of the big brands, and not have any issues. The biggest concern with my LS is that I would like a little more room for my feet to slide past the brake pedals when I'm getting on/off....wow, spend another $10K to get rid of that!

I love the trucking example. I started driving heavy trucks when I was 17, in Autocars with Spicer twin stick 5 x 4 transmissions (yes, I learned two-handed split-shifting), no air-ride, no air-anything. I thought I'd died and gone to heaven the first time I got to drive a brand new Mack with a Cummins 350, and a 13spd Eaton in it...(guy was sick that day). The difference between a Deere and an LS or Kioti isn't even remotely the same as the difference in the trucks you're talking about. Even the most advanced CUT, is a very simple machine compared with a big truck. Heck, when Detroit Diesel asked me to visit a few months ago, they gave me an insider tour of the facility, and I noted that their DD16 weighs as much as my 8N, and the emissions system looked like it came out of the space shuttle....simply no comparison to how tractors are today. Heck, the platforms the engines move down the line are computerized robots that cost six figures! Wanna try airplanes, or motorcycles next?

By the way, if I am an unqualified person making acquisitions, what does that make you?

Someone who isn't claiming to know that any particular brand uses more advanced engineering, or higher quality materials. You made the claims, not me. I just asked how you knew (as opposed to thought), and you didn't answer.
 
   / John Deere 4120 V.S. Kubota Grand L4060 w/ prices #155  
I've said this several times in several different discussions. You gotta spend more than 15 minutes in the seat of a tractor to know what fits you. Spend that time on all the different brands you can find.

Absolutely. I thought I was going to buy a different tractor when I bought my MF 241, but simply couldn't get on and off the thing without doing a cartwheel...not worth the trouble.

I know the OP is being polite and patient. But he ain't gonna learn anything about JD4120 vs Kubota GL4060 on this thread. :eek:

He's in negotiations for a different brand tractor.
 
   / John Deere 4120 V.S. Kubota Grand L4060 w/ prices #156  
Stopped by the LS Dealer today and learned a lot.
For instance New Holland tractors are made by LS, and have been for a while.
This dealer is a family owned business that sold New Holland's for the last 20 years.
The price is closer to 1/3 less than the Green.

Just wanted to bring this up again as it isn't actually true. SOME NH tractors are made by LS (I believe the compacts) but the Utility sized and up are still made by NH. The T4.75 is not an LS tractor, but some (maybe all?) of the Boomers are.
 
   / John Deere 4120 V.S. Kubota Grand L4060 w/ prices #157  
I never mentioned anything about NH, but the reason for the increase in price is so both of them can make a profit. LS has to make money and so does NH. That's the joy of outsourcing. Should NH built the tractor 100% on their own it would have cost more. However, NH and LS benefit from the joint venture. Not simply cooperate greed as you believe.

Those of you saying ergonomics isn't a true facet of engineering are mental midgets. Companies spend thousands, even millions on ergo's in a single project and billions are spent on ergo's worldwide every year. The most prominent advancing science of engineering is ergonomics. Just because you don't understand astrophysics doesn't mean it's not real, just like ergonomics engineering. Those who are ergo engineers will tell you the science that you foolishly proclaim a gimmick. I provided ONE example of superior engineering. I'm no 'fanatic' of Deere, I simply demand the best product. Whether you think it or not the ergo's of a Deere or Kubota give a much better environment. Maybe one day you should look into everything involved in ergonomics, not only is it far more of a science than you believe, it's far more indepth and encompasses far more region than you would ever believe. Just like a power train guy can put specs on paper so can an ergo guy, they just don't. Ergo engineering is very real, though.

I do also like how you don't have anything to say about how Deere leads the industry and everyone else (LS) follows. It costs them more. I can sit on a 2000 Deere 4600 or your LS and overall they are much the same. You might have a couple more standard 'features', but they are much closer to the same product than a new Deere.

Albeit an exaggerated example at least you understood it, though you failed once again to comprehend. The price figures might be higher, but the example stands true. Deere tractors are simply far more advanced than your LS and light years ahead in innovation. Kia's were mentioned earlier and they have made it to the market because they had a compelling price point with good value. Now the prices have risen. LS's are a value tractor, but do not offer anything special in any other way over top Deere or Kubota. Not a business strategy for success. You need to pioneer something and that's not what they are doing. They are following the industry with a competitive price point solely.

You also thought (as opposed to know) that a Deere or Kubota isn't worth the premium. Which makes you just as much as a scum bucket as me. I'm off on a plane ride here in a couple hours, so I digress. I guess we'll be gentlemen and agree to disagree.
 
   / John Deere 4120 V.S. Kubota Grand L4060 w/ prices #158  
I never mentioned anything about NH, but the reason for the increase in price is so both of them can make a profit. LS has to make money and so does NH. That's the joy of outsourcing. Should NH built the tractor 100% on their own it would have cost more. However, NH and LS benefit from the joint venture. Not simply cooperate greed as you believe.

If NH made it themselves it would have cost even more? Then it would cost more than a Deere or Kubota, so I guess it would be better than those two since price dictates quality?

Where your comment fails is that NH doesn't buy them at the price the consumer does. I paid $21.5K for my R4047H. NH charges $31K for that machine as a Boomer 50. They certainly don't pay LS $21K for one, do they? Nope, they're going to get it at least as low as LS dealers pay for them. That's where LS makes their profit...in the difference between their production cost, and the price they charge dealers. NH could sell them at around the price LS dealers do, and still make a profit, but they crank the price up another $10K. Your argument fails....period, it's simple economics, and arithmetic. The machine is no better, but they charge much more for it, because of the name.

Those of you saying ergonomics isn't a true facet of engineering are mental midgets. Companies spend thousands, even millions on ergo's in a single project and billions are spent on ergo's worldwide every year. Maybe one day you should look into everything involved in ergonomics, not only is it far more of a science than you believe, it's far more indepth and encompasses far more region than you would ever believe. Just like a power train guy can put specs on paper so can an ergo guy, they just don't. Ergo engineering is very real, though.

I never said ergonomics wasn't real, or wasn't important, but it doesn't account for 40-50% of the price of a new tractor. We're talking very simple machines here, not the interior of a Mercedes, or the cockpit of an F-22. The fact that you've based the massive price difference between something like an LS or Kioti, and a Deere on ergonomics shows how silly your position is. If it costs Deere 40-50% more to make the operating station more ergonomic, they've got some serious problems. Or does the 4120 come standard with heated/cooled seats, with massaging back, a backup camera on the dash, adaptive cruise control with radar proximity, so you don't get too close to other tractors, and eyelid scanners to make sure the operator isn't getting sleepy?

I do also like how you don't have anything to say about how Deere leads the industry and everyone else (LS) follows. It costs them more.

Dude, we're talking about compact tractors. We pull things with them, move dirt, lift stuff, and power 3pt devices....this isn't all that complicated. Sure, leading might cost more, but if it's 40-50% more, it's wasted on such basic activities.

LS's are a value tractor, but do not offer anything special in any other way over top Deere or Kubota. Not a business strategy for success. You need to pioneer something and that's not what they are doing. They are following the industry with a competitive price point solely.

Wow, have you ever paid attention to the auto industry? The companies that are kicking the heck out of the industry leaders are the ones offering the best value. The Japanese car companies nearly killed the world-leading U.S. auto industry by providing simple, reliable, economical models that got the job done....period. That's more than a strategy for success.

You also thought (as opposed to know) that a Deere or Kubota isn't worth the premium. Which makes you just as much as a scum bucket as me. I'm off on a plane ride here in a couple hours, so I digress. I guess we'll be gentlemen and agree to disagree.

No, I know that I didn't need to pay the premium to do what I need to get done. You ever going to answer all the other questions you've ducked? On second thought, don't bother trying...they're already pretty obvious.
 
   / John Deere 4120 V.S. Kubota Grand L4060 w/ prices #159  
Deere had there butts handed to them when it came to the Cuts. They got in it too late too little.
 
   / John Deere 4120 V.S. Kubota Grand L4060 w/ prices #160  
...No, I know that I didn't need to pay the premium to do what I need to get done. You ever going to answer all the other questions you've ducked? On second thought, don't bother trying...they're already pretty obvious.

I wouldn't bother. Further argument is just unecessary wear and tear on your keyboard.

First it was that the JD/Kubota was superior from a quality stand-point, but he changed his position when he realized that no one would accept that claim without substantiation. Then he changed it to the claim that JD was the sole-source of design improvements, to which the rest of the industry only copied (though, somehow, the Kioti's unique rear 3pt lever was just a "gimmick") Then it became that JD/Kubota had universally-preferred ergonomics - a totally subjective merit.

If it walks like a troll, and talks like a troll...
 

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