John Deere 4120 V.S. Kubota Grand L4060 w/ prices

[ovrszd]

I don't think anyone here is being a Troll.

There's just a firm difference of opinion between GManBart and DocDiesel. A difference that is not going to be resolved. The discussion has divided this thread and no one that has posted to date is going to be swayed from their position.

The ergonomics topic is very important to me. Maybe not so much to others. GManBart accepts how his floor area is designed in regards to the brake pedals. That's the reason I only sat on one tractor (blue tractor) for 30 seconds and marked it off my list . Stuff like that drives me crazy. My Kubota's range lever was too far rearward to suit me so I modified it. But to GManBart and others, they accept these things and just deal with it. That's fine. It seems the farther down the pecking order list of manufacturers you go the more ergonomic errors you find. It's simple economics. It's cheaper design.

Hopefully everyone is driving the tractor of their dreams.

 

[DocDiesel]

I don't think anyone here is being a Troll.

There's just a firm difference of opinion between GManBart and DocDiesel. A difference that is not going to be resolved. The discussion has divided this thread and no one that has posted to date is going to be swayed from their position.

The ergonomics topic is very important to me. Maybe not so much to others. GManBart accepts how his floor area is designed in regards to the brake pedals. That's the reason I only sat on one tractor (blue tractor) for 30 seconds and marked it off my list . Stuff like that drives me crazy. My Kubota's range lever was too far rearward to suit me so I modified it. But to GManBart and others, they accept these things and just deal with it. That's fine. It seems the farther down the pecking order list of manufacturers you go the more ergonomic errors you find. It's simple economics. It's cheaper design.

Hopefully everyone is driving the tractor of their dreams.

Glad someone understands.

 

[arlen4720]

This thread started out with questions comparing a certain Kubota to a John Deere 4120. It has morphed into an LS vs JD thread. GManBart is asking for examples of where a JD 4x20 is "better engineered" than his LS.
I guess I can think of a few... Some things are standard equipment, and some things are optional, but options still have to be engineered.
Here goes:
1) the LS has a normally aspirated indirect injected engine with an intake preheater. The JD 4x20's have turbocharged direct injected engines with glowplugs.
Maybe to GmanBart, It doesn't matter. He points to the 3 or 4 more horsepower that the LS puts out over the smallest of the 4x20's, but you can go up to the 4720, with the same block as the 4120, and get 66 hp. Horsepower aside, a direct injected motor is more expensive to manufacture and enginner, and offers better fuel economy and better cold starts. Glowplugs are more expensive to engineer and manufacture than intake heating. The turbo gives a better torque curve and better fuel economy. It is also important to note that the LS makes it's power at 2600rpm, and the JD makes it at 2400.
Maybe it's not important to some, but would be to others.
2) The JD ehydro Transmission is all electronically controlled and integrated into the engine computer control. Many would say that they hate all of the electronics, but many would not.
But opinions aside, the eHydro leads to useful features like eThrottle, and loadMatch...2 very useful features for loader work. Also, eHydro makes electronic cruise control possible. Pretty handy if you need to spray. Also very little pedal effort is needed to move (ergonomics) Again more engineering, and more manufacturing cost.
3) Joystick operated electro Hydraulic valve. Very handy for a grapple. (ergonomics) More engineering, more costs.
4) Self leveling loader Lifts over 2300 pound to full hieght 18 inches forward of the bucket. More height that the LS, and 20 inches more dump clearance than the LS. Pretty D@MN nice features if you need them, more engineering and ergonomics.
5) The JD has 50 percent more hydraulic flow than the LS.
6) ePTO. The JD ePto allows the tractor to run at 1500 rpm and get full PTO speed. Nice for lower power implements. Not for everybody, but more engineering, and more costs.

I think that is enough to make my point. John deere is at the high end of the spectrum. Allot goes into engineering and building these machines. It's just a matter if you have a want and/or a need for all of these "high end" features.
It has been said on this forum many times, but seldom practiced it seems :"buy what you think is the best value for your needs and be happy"
I hope that all of you take my "ribbing" lightly, but I do think that if God owned a tractor it would be a John Deere (but not a 4x20) :laughing:

 

[GManBart]

This thread started out with questions comparing a certain Kubota to a John Deere 4120. It has morphed into an LS vs JD thread. GManBart is asking for examples of where a JD 4x20 is "better engineered" than his LS.
I guess I can think of a few... Some things are standard equipment, and some things are optional, but options still have to be engineered.
Here goes:
1) the LS has a normally aspirated indirect injected engine with an intake preheater. The JD 4x20's have turbocharged direct injected engines with glowplugs.
Maybe to GmanBart, It doesn't matter. He points to the 3 or 4 more horsepower that the LS puts out over the smallest of the 4x20's, but you can go up to the 4720, with the same block as the 4120, and get 66 hp. Horsepower aside, a direct injected motor is more expensive to manufacture and enginner, and offers better fuel economy and better cold starts. Glowplugs are more expensive to engineer and manufacture than intake heating. The turbo gives a better torque curve and better fuel economy. It is also important to note that the LS makes it's power at 2600rpm, and the JD makes it at 2400.
Maybe it's not important to some, but would be to others.

If you went up to a 66hp engine in the larger Deere, the price would jump exponentially, so that isn't remotely relevant.

What you're trying to say is that you would pay more, to get less horsepower, but those are "better" horsepower?

Fuel economy is nice, but I can buy a lot more diesel for the $10K difference in price. Spending a bunch of money, to turbocharge/direct inject the same size engine, to get less power, with all the added expense, and increased wear that goes with pressurizing an engine is silly. If you add a blower to get more power, it makes sense. To get less power, and better fuel economy it's questionable at best. If you tuned the LS engine for less power, you'd get better fuel economy, and the same amount of power as the Deere engine, so the gap would close in that regard as well.

I've said this really wasn't Deere Vs. LS, so I'll cover that in a separate reply.

 

[GManBart]

This thread started out with questions comparing a certain Kubota to a John Deere 4120. It has morphed into an LS vs JD thread.

Not really. Switch to a Kioti DK45SE, and it's just as obvious what Deere and Kubota are charging people for.

DK45SE: 45hp (glow plugs), 35hp PTO, 2,493lbs 3pt lift at 24", basic operating weight 3,924lbs, loader max lift of 108", dump clearance 80", 3,727lbs breakout force at the pins, 2,761lbs max lift to full height at the pins, total hydraulic pump flow (including steering) 16.8gpm.

Deere 4120: 43hp, 35hp PTO, 2,500lbs 3pt lift at 24", basic operating weight 3,700lbs, loader max lift of 111", dump clearance 87", 3,512lbs breakout force at pins, 2,339lbs max lift to full height at the pins, total hydraulic flow (including steering) 17.1gpm.

Price difference....about $7K more for the Deere. That's an awfully expensive eHydro, and couple of inches loader lift and dump clearance!

 

[arlen4720]

You like to isolate each difference, and explain them away as if it is the only difference for the price difference. You have to look at the totality of the differences, and make a call whether a high end machine is right for you. 7 inches of dump clearance may be pretty d@mn important if you need it to get over a feeder, or load a particular truck.

 

[arlen4720]

What you're trying to say is that you would pay more, to get less horsepower, but those are "better" horsepower?

.

I would pay more for a direct injected, turbocharged, engine with glowplugs, designed and built by John Deere in America (mexico is america). Which makes it's power at 2400 RPM vs 2600 of the LS.
And I would pay even more to jump up to a 4720 and get 66 hp

 

[GManBart]

You like to isolate each difference, and explain them away as if it is the only difference for the price difference. You have to look at the totality of the differences, and make a call whether a high end machine is right for you. 7 inches of dump clearance may be pretty d@mn important if you need it to get over a feeder, or load a particular truck.

No, I simply listed the basic core characteristics of both machines. When we start looking for a machine to do a job, we generally all start with power, PTO power, size, and lifting capability (to include height)....everything else is pretty much just a detail.

The Kioti and Deere have pretty similar core capabilities, but very different prices. Fact.

I'm guessing the next thing you guys are going to pull out is that Deere uses secret carbon nanotechnology in the paint to make it more UV resistant, and that the tires they spec are chemically infused with hybrid carnauba polymers that aid traction, reduce weather checking, increase fuel mileage, and ride softer, while being more cut resistant. Definitely more reason to fork over an extra 40-50%!

Tractors pull things, power things, and lift things....that's really it. All of the fancy little details might be nice, but they do little to increase the core capabilities of the machine....if at all. Somebody trading their DK45SE in on a 4120 isn't going to get anything more done in a day, and may get less done if the strengths of the DK are more important to the task at hand, but you guys will never admit that.

Mexico is America? Tell that to the workers here in Detroit who lost their jobs when the plants moved to Mexico. :thumbdown:

 

[GManBart]

I would pay more for a direct injected, turbocharged, engine with glowplugs, designed and built by John Deere in America (mexico is america). Which makes it's (less) power at 2400 RPM vs 2600 of the LS.

FIFY (fixed it for you)

 

[arlen4720]

FIFY (fixed it for you)

You seem unhappy:-(