Keeping out the idiots...of the air...

   / Keeping out the idiots...of the air... #21  
Eddie,

I call them as I see them.

Yes, I read the post and the OP said that he went over to complain to his neighbor because the neighbor flew low over his house. Then he said, and I quote, "I explained that I though it was akin to tresspassing and an invasion of my privacy."

How well received do you think the complaining neighbor is going to be with that attitude right out of the gate? The pilot's attitude of "buzz off" should be your first clue of how that conversation went. Pilot's do not take that attitude unless the person approaching them is being a jerk and its obvious that any further conversation would be non-productive.

First, its perfectly legal to fly over a house at 75 feet if the neighbor is taking off or landing and its perfectly within his rights to do so. Second, the neighbor indicated he has a legal airport which means that the State Dept of transportation aviation division will help the neighbor fight the OP. Once an airport is legal, the owner has all kinds of resources (including access to free lawyers) who will help him win out over the original poster.

The best resolution the poster has is to defuse the situation that he created by first apologizing and then trying to work out something mutually agreeable. The pilot can certainly take off and leave the area and upon return come in and land without doing touch N goes, etc. Keeping noise and disturbance to a minimum.
 
   / Keeping out the idiots...of the air... #22  
What Eddie and Curly Dave said. If you were there before the flying neighbor, just when and how was this approved. Who(FAA and local zoning commission) inspected, approved and signed off on this. If approved officially, ask the planning/zoning commission and the FAA for the approach and departure corridor plans. IF approved officially, I bet there are use restrictions... As mentioned, the planning commission has to have a plan so they know where future land users may have restrictions imposed on them for the pre-existing airport.

Unless you are directly off the end of the runway, there is no excuse for an aircraft to be over your home at low altitude and full power. If your at 1/4 mile away from the end of the runway, and the runway is 1/2 mile long, I would guess that a typical aircraft would be higher than 300'-400' by the time it reached your home on a departure, and should probably not ever be lower on either approach or departure. If climbing in the pattern, I would expect it to be higher. A typical landing pattern starts flying parallel to the landing runway at approx 800'-1000' above runway height and about that far away from the runway(1/4 mile?). The aircraft is slowed at this point and should probably be using little power(just enough to maintain altitude. This is the "downwind" leg. When abeam the touchdown point, power is reduced and a descent is started. It is flown at little or no power to a point where the desired touchdown spot(end of runway) is approximatly 45 degrees behind the wing. Then a 90 degree turn is made toward the runway, while still descending at low power. This flying perpendicular to the runay heading is called the "base" leg. As you approach the runway bearing, another 90 degree turn is made to line up with the runway. This last leg is called "Final". A proper approach is made with little power, and unless really screwed up, never any abrupt power changes as you describe. It is also made with enough altitude so that an engine failure is a non event as you are basically gliding down to the runway anyway.

Unless terrain or restrictions dictate(don't fly over the hospital on the north side of the runway), traffic paterns are typically flown "to the left" with the base and final turns made in that direction as that is what side the pilots seat is on in a side by side configuration. I learned to fly at an airfield with such a restriction so sometimes we flew right handed patterns. So when landing one way, he will fly on one side of the runway, and when landing the other way, he will fly on the other side of the runway. Takeoffs remaining in the pattern are also flown to the left unless restricted and at the same distance from the runway, but in a steady full power climb untill patern altitude is reached. If you happen to fall under the established traffic pattern for this approved airfield, Unless each and every pass over your home is either preceeded by his wheels leaving the runway a minute or two before, or his wheels touching back onto the runway a minute or two later, he is propbably just trying to light your fire as you had the audacity to challenge his right as a pilot to fly:)

Curly Dave hit the key point. The FAA is a big old school buracuracy. It runs on paper... Letters and official complaint need to be addressed. Phone call? What phone call? The more paper the better. Letters should include photos, maps, sat photos from google earth, descriptions of what the pattern should be based on the airport plan(planning/zoning commission), how your property sets in relation to this plan and how he is exactly flying in relation to the airport and your property. If you can take video, please do so. He might not fly so brazzenly if he sees you doing it though. If photos or video are available, Make sure it is detailed enough to identify the aircraft and wide angle enough to show how he is flying in relation to your property/the traffic pattern. IE: The barn is due south of the house, and he approaches, as the video shows, directly over the barn. If you turn in a video of him flying a normal pattern, you are probably going to get laughed at. The behavior you describe does not sound like a normal pattern though. Abrupt power changes over your home are not in a normal well planned approach or departure. Understanding how the patern is supposed to work will help make your complaint easier to describe in terms that make sense and be more credible, than just some non-pilot whinning about airplane noise...

As with all government agencies, problems are to be handled at the lowest level possible. Start with a letter to the person you have already dealt with. No response in 2 weeks, move up the chain. Once you understand the airport plans/rules, a letter to the zoning commission might not hurt either.

This is a matter of your word against his. "But Mr FAA investigator, I am just flying in the pattern, I don't know why he is complaning" A video tape of an aircraft with his tail numbers buzzing your house and gunning the engine would be real handy after he has repeatedly made statements to that effect.

Being a pilot, I would not be bothered if I lived under the pattern and he was operating in the pattern as I described above. I would have no right to be if it was an official airport. If he was not, I would have my videocamera charged and ready, and a plan for best capturing any events on video without easilly being observed from the air. I would once again go visit him to express my concerns with how I feel he is operating his aircraft over my home and disturbing my right to peacefull enjoyment of my property. No threats, no what-if's, no "I'm going to...", just express what is bothering you and the distress it has caused your family. Then I would set back and wait. If the guy is trying to annoy you, it will intensify. As a pilot, he dosn't have the right to deviate from approved patern procedure except in case of emergency. If he does, well then he deservs what he gets.

As a pilot, if I had my own runway, I know it is a big sky up there. I am fairly certain that I could work out a noise abatement plan with my neighbors. I know I hate being disturbed, I would hate to disturb them any more than necessary. But where I think flying is necessary, they do not, and that is where the comprimises would need to be made. I think it would also be bennefficial if they understood the needs I have to remain safe in and around the traffic pattern. As a pilot I am under a lot of scrutiny. The last thing I would want is the FAA or zoning commission crawling onto my back because one of the neighbors thinks I am buzzing his home...

Good Luck
 
   / Keeping out the idiots...of the air... #23  
As a pilot this thread is just nutz.

that sound is the sound of freedom.

Do not take freedom for granted. The freedom you enjoy...someone has paid for...
Hehehe, except pilots who fly airplanes near anything anybody else owns...hehe

MNbobcat I agree with you.

30.06 will land you in a federal prison. Try it out.

Everyone thinks that they own the airspace above your property lines, you don't.

To the guy that talked about blasting activities, a prudent and smart blasting company would notify the FAA several days in advance of the blasting activities so that the FAA could issue a flight restriction which would guarantee that any "prudent" pilot (i will not defend reckless or idiot pilots) will not be in the area.

Non-pilots are extremely horrible in guestimating altitude. What you think is 75' may or may not be. I suggest you get a rangefinder with a nonhazardous laser (harmful laser see federal prison above). And remember that 500' slant range in sparsely populated areas. If you can read tail numbers, he's not over the top of you.

Unless you know how to land an airplane in a confined area, you have no idea why a guy may or may not be "gunning" the engine on final approach. If you did know, you wouldnt say jack about it. You would know. It's not like living next to an old 7000' WW2 runway with lots of overshoot room.

The only thing worse than this is the idiots that buy property next to a current airport and then complain about the noise....Oh noes, I can take x amount of landings a day but x+1 landings a day is too much (because nobody told me that if the population increases by Y percent, the general land and ground travel increases by Y percent) and now I want to complain and shut down the airport and spend a bunch of money on legal fees and litigation, all the while complaining on my internet forums about this country becoming too litigious, and also, about how long it takes to get to the next town over to get a flight, because the close airport got closed down, and then complain about how long it takes to get the airplane off the ground because of all the delays, because of all the closed airports.

Nuts.

As long as the world revolves around you, me, and everyone else in the world, is the only way we can be happy.

I think maybe it's time to renew my AOPA membership.

I would be willing to take any names and addresses of people that complain about aircraft noise and forward them to the air ambulance services in their area. You know, just so that we know where not to make noise. Or help anyone.
 
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   / Keeping out the idiots...of the air... #24  
Unless you are directly off the end of the runway, there is no excuse for an aircraft to be over your home at low altitude and full power.

I can think of at least 4 reasons why that statement is wrong, and 2 of them have already been stated in this thread somewhere.


If your at 1/4 mile away from the end of the runway, and the runway is 1/2 mile long, I would guess that a typical aircraft would be higher than 300'-400' by the time it reached your home on a departure,
Your guess would be wrong for many GA aircraft. Check out the climb charts on a 150. Or a Cherokee 140 with 3 adults in it in the summer. Your description describes at least a 750-1000 fpm rate of climb.

and should probably not ever be lower on either approach or departure.
Again, wrong.

If climbing in the pattern, I would expect it to be higher. A typical landing pattern starts flying parallel to the landing runway at approx 800'-1000' above runway height and about that far away from the runway(1/4 mile?).
Try at least a mile but nice guess?


The aircraft is slowed at this point and should probably be using little power(just enough to maintain altitude. This is the "downwind" leg. When abeam the touchdown point, power is reduced and a descent is started. It is flown at little or no power to a point where the desired touchdown spot(end of runway) is approximatly 45 degrees behind the wing. Then a 90 degree turn is made toward the runway, while still descending at low power. This flying perpendicular to the runay heading is called the "base" leg. As you approach the runway bearing, another 90 degree turn is made to line up with the runway. This last leg is called "Final". A proper approach is made with little power, and unless really screwed up, never any abrupt power changes as you describe. It is also made with enough altitude so that an engine failure is a non event as you are basically gliding down to the runway anyway.
This is actuallly correct EXCEPT for the power changes (abrupt is not entirely correct, large power changes would be correct, but whether an untrained observer on the ground knows the difference between abrupt or large or any change at all or not???yeah ok :rolleyes: Abrupt small power changes on final to maintain circle of action is entirely normal especially with any sort of wind/turbulence and a less than professional pilot, and less than a heavy aircraft which is less affected by wind/turbulence)

Unless each and every pass over your home is either preceeded by his wheels leaving the runway a minute or two before, or his wheels touching back onto the runway a minute or two later, he is propbably just trying to light your fire as you had the audacity to challenge his right as a pilot to fly:)
Good point here.

The FAA is a big old school buracuracy. It runs on paper... Letters and official complaint need to be addressed. Phone call? What phone call? The more paper the better. Letters should include photos, maps, sat photos from google earth, descriptions of what the pattern should be based on the airport plan(planning/zoning commission), how your property sets in relation to this plan and how he is exactly flying in relation to the airport and your property. If you can take video, please do so. He might not fly so brazzenly if he sees you doing it though. If photos or video are available, Make sure it is detailed enough to identify the aircraft and wide angle enough to show how he is flying in relation to your property/the traffic pattern. IE: The barn is due south of the house, and he approaches, as the video shows, directly over the barn. If you turn in a video of him flying a normal pattern, you are probably going to get laughed at. The behavior you describe does not sound like a normal pattern though. Abrupt power changes over your home are not in a normal well planned approach or departure. Understanding how the patern is supposed to work will help make your complaint easier to describe in terms that make sense and be more credible, than just some non-pilot whinning about airplane noise...

This is a matter of your word against his. "But Mr FAA investigator, I am just flying in the pattern, I don't know why he is complaning" A video tape of an aircraft with his tail numbers buzzing your house and gunning the engine would be real handy after he has repeatedly made statements to that effect.

Being a pilot, I would not be bothered if I lived under the pattern and he was operating in the pattern as I described above. I would have no right to be if it was an official airport. If he was not, I would have my videocamera charged and ready, and a plan for best capturing any events on video without easilly being observed from the air. I would once again go visit him to express my concerns with how I feel he is operating his aircraft over my home and disturbing my right to peacefull enjoyment of my property. No threats, no what-if's, no "I'm going to...", just express what is bothering you and the distress it has caused your family. Then I would set back and wait. If the guy is trying to annoy you, it will intensify. As a pilot, he dosn't have the right to deviate from approved patern procedure except in case of emergency. If he does, well then he deservs what he gets.

As a pilot, if I had my own runway, I know it is a big sky up there. I am fairly certain that I could work out a noise abatement plan with my neighbors. I know I hate being disturbed, I would hate to disturb them any more than necessary. But where I think flying is necessary, they do not, and that is where the comprimises would need to be made. I think it would also be bennefficial if they understood the needs I have to remain safe in and around the traffic pattern. As a pilot I am under a lot of scrutiny. The last thing I would want is the FAA or zoning commission crawling onto my back because one of the neighbors thinks I am buzzing his home...

Good Luck
This last part is good, except that there is no "deviate from approved pattern procedure" in the CFR. In that, the guy can do a traffic pattern any way he wants to distance and altitude wise.
 
   / Keeping out the idiots...of the air... #25  
Re: Keeping out the idiots...of noise pollution...

I live in the country and a guy moved in five years ago and likes to shoot his big elephant guns from right near my property line at all hours of daylight.

The noise from the gun is keeping my baby awake, rattling the old window panes of my house, and forcing me to turn up the volume on my TV.

I caught him in the street and told him to stop shooting his #$)%## guns altogether or else I would be forced to pursue legal action.

Now he is shooting his guns even more, at least it seems to me, because he didn't stop altogether like I asked him (nicely) to do.

I don't understand who lets these people that want to do whatever they want live out in the country anyways. I wish there was a covenants association that could weed them out.


*********
Title of my next thread, in the BUILD IT YOURSELF FORUM.


da internetz: a wonderful place to get a daily affirmation on self centered behavior.
 
   / Keeping out the idiots...of the air...
  • Thread Starter
#26  
archerm3:

As a pilot this thread is just nutz.

that sound is the sound of freedom.


Quote:
Do not take freedom for granted. The freedom you enjoy...someone has paid for...
Hehehe, except pilots who fly airplanes near anything anybody else owns...hehe


Do you have any idea of what you are mocking??? I repeat...Ignorance is not a virtue.

Certainly he has the "freedom" to fly. He also has an obligatation to do so in a responsible manner.

I have the freedom to live my life without being blatenly hassled. If this man just flew over once and landed the plane, I honestly don't think that I would have a problem. I wouldn't like it, but could live with it.

However, it is obvious that he is going out of his way to hassle me. He does not always touch the ground. When he does he takes off immediately and does it again. The weather is always fair, and he never leaves the plane on the field, as it is kept at the local sm. airport.

So the Freedom I mention in my sig. is something you obviously have no appreciation for...but even in that ignorance, you, and the pilot, both are able to enjoy the benefits of that freedom.

Sorta like an animal that suddenly runs across a meal that he had nothing to do with as far as procurring it. He could care less how or why it appeared as long as he is able to gobble it down, and fight off others.

I'm not going any further with these pissing posts. Post what you want...you are FREE to do so...




 
   / Keeping out the idiots...of the air... #27  
A question for the pilots here because I just don't know. Do private planes have to meet any type of noise restrictions? I understand that some planes, just like some trucks, will be louder than others. It seems though if two similar Cessna's fly over one may be considerable louder than the other. I can't drive a hot rod on the road without a muffler can I fly a plane without any noise restriction equipment?

MarkV
 
   / Keeping out the idiots...of the air... #28  
markV it really depends on what was original on a certified arcraft. What was original has to remain apart from a significant amount of paper work. :) For example I once owned a 1947 Cessna 140 (really nice flying plane) and it has absolutely no muffler of any kind. Two cylinders on each side are joined with a "Y" pipe and dumped out the back of the cowling and under the belly. Newer planes are taking some noise into consideration and have mufflers and quieter exhaust noise.

However, a significant amount of the noise comes from the prop itself. You cannot spin a big chunk of aluminum around at 2500 rpm without it making some noise. that is even more so with the constant speed props (variable pitch). But then again here they have made new props with "Q-tips" (quiet tips) to reduce the noise.

Mike

Maine--Why don't you post a link to a google map or send the address so we could see the situation better on Google Maps. It is really hard to say why he is doing what he does without knowing the situation. The approaches without landing could just be practice, even where he touches down and goes again is a common method of practicing. I, for one would be interested in knowing what kind of plane he has, the length of his strip, the orientation of the strip, and the straight line distance between your house and the approach end of his strip. (You never mention him taking off and climbing out so I assume that he always is approaching over your house.

Mike
 
   / Keeping out the idiots...of the air... #29  
Has anyone thought that maybe one of the two negative posters might be the neighbor with the plane.


YOU ONLY HAVE REAL FREEDOM, IF YOU DO NOT INFRINGE ON THE RIGHTS OF OTHERS.
 
   / Keeping out the idiots...of the air... #30  
markV it really depends on what was original on a certified arcraft. What was original has to remain apart from a significant amount of paper work. :) For example I once owned a 1947 Cessna 140 (really nice flying plane) and it has absolutely no muffler of any kind. Two cylinders on each side are joined with a "Y" pipe and dumped out the back of the cowling and under the belly. Newer planes are taking some noise into consideration and have mufflers and quieter exhaust noise.

However, a significant amount of the noise comes from the prop itself. You cannot spin a big chunk of aluminum around at 2500 rpm without it making some noise. that is even more so with the constant speed props (variable pitch). But then again here they have made new props with "Q-tips" (quiet tips) to reduce the noise.

Mike
Thanks Mike, that clears it up for me, appreciate the explanation.

MarkV
 

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