Keeping out the idiots...of the air...
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2manyrocks
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If one of the negative posters is in fact the guy with the plane, then certainly the whole thing has been thoroughly discussed.
I was thinking that if the neighbor really is intentionally buzzing, then there ought to be some recourse either with the FAA or in the local courts. It is just one guy with a plane-we're not talking about shutting down an international airport. Either he's got the right to fly over at the particular altitude he is using or he doesn't.
Glad I'm surrounded by three steep hills and a high power electric line on the fourth side.
I was thinking that if the neighbor really is intentionally buzzing, then there ought to be some recourse either with the FAA or in the local courts. It is just one guy with a plane-we're not talking about shutting down an international airport. Either he's got the right to fly over at the particular altitude he is using or he doesn't.
Glad I'm surrounded by three steep hills and a high power electric line on the fourth side.
Taylortractornut
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MJP your post o nthe engines really brought back some memories from when I was 17 I had a part time job at the local air strip. I got to work for a Crop duster that had four 300 Air Tractors wit hthe the radial Pratt and Whitney engines and also had a Dromedier made in Poland I think it had a 900 hp P&W radial. Then we also had Payne services come in with I think theres was Agcat planes some of those were bi winged.
I remeber the agcats with the turbo prop that had a jet engine in it backwards and the exhaust ran a turbo thats shaft went into the gear reduction on the prop hub. I saw many service men hold them when they started them but it it ever moved it was gone. They had the exhaust from 2 pipes on either side of the prop hub.
My favorite was the Dromedier withthe shuttle seat. It was a rear facing seat on the back made to take the marker man out to the fields. Its a funny feeling when you feel it drop down at about 100 and you see powerlines go over. It was my job to ready them for flight and wash them in the evenings. Theres an Agtruck thats at the same place that I worked thats been painted blue and white and its just a toy. Its sharp.
About the blasting we had a permit for blasting for 6 months 8 hours a day Monday through Friday. We had been registered with FAA ahead of time. Mostly the big planes stayed out ust had the ultra lights and the powered parachute that stayed over us the whole time.
I remeber the agcats with the turbo prop that had a jet engine in it backwards and the exhaust ran a turbo thats shaft went into the gear reduction on the prop hub. I saw many service men hold them when they started them but it it ever moved it was gone. They had the exhaust from 2 pipes on either side of the prop hub.
My favorite was the Dromedier withthe shuttle seat. It was a rear facing seat on the back made to take the marker man out to the fields. Its a funny feeling when you feel it drop down at about 100 and you see powerlines go over. It was my job to ready them for flight and wash them in the evenings. Theres an Agtruck thats at the same place that I worked thats been painted blue and white and its just a toy. Its sharp.
About the blasting we had a permit for blasting for 6 months 8 hours a day Monday through Friday. We had been registered with FAA ahead of time. Mostly the big planes stayed out ust had the ultra lights and the powered parachute that stayed over us the whole time.
thatguy
Elite Member
Put a big wind mill up at the edge of your property in his flight path.
I was thinking short wave radio.. an antenna (with proper flashing light) may be a deterent..
b
RonMar
Elite Member
I was thinking the same thing
Archerm 3, are you a liscensed pilot?
My guestimates were for a C-150 flown solo, which I think of as a "typical" aircraft... If you like, here are some more refined numbers.
1/4 mile is 1320'.
From my copy of a 1973 C-150 owners manual(which only seats for 2 by the way):
1600 LB gross weight. No wind, Sea level at 89F would yield a takeoff run on grass to clear a 50' obstacle of 1673'(300' past mid field on a 1/2 mile runway). Under those conditions and at 1600LB gross, you would get about 635 FT/MIN of climb(corrected for 89F air temp) at 76 MPH best Rate Of Climb airspeed. A cessna climbing at 76 MPH covers 1.26 miles every 60 seconds. So for half a mile, that is about 250' of altitude gain, plus the 50' started at... Those are of course worst case hot and heavy numbers, and the published data in the manual for clearing a 50' obstacle is generous. cooler air temp, solo pilot numbrs for this aircraft are much better... That is also if the OP lived 1/4 mile right off the end of a 1/2 mile long runway. If the airplane was flying a pattern, he would of course be airborne longer and would have climbed to a greater altitude...
4 reasons to be motoring around at low level at full power, or making radical power adjustments repeatedly at low altitude in the vicinity of an airfield? I am curious, what are they? What have I missed, or forgotten over the years... Sorry, with my training and experiences, I really can't think of any reasonable excuse why a properly trained pilot would be doing so, except ag work or some sort of inflight emergency... Maybe once or twice due to errors or practice, but it is just not a good idea to be doing so on a regular basis. It is afterall his home field, he should know how to approach and land on it. Engines can and do quit. If you are repeatedly dragging your butt low over the trees with power to reach the runway, you are going to eventually get bit. Always leave yourself an out!
As for pattern distance, on downwind, I don't know about you, but I am used to looking down at the runway at about a 45 degree angle. At 1000' of elevation, that yields about a 1000' of horizontal separation from the runway. Unless my high school geometery teacher lied to me
Gotta stay close enough to land safely if the engine quits... For example, a C150 is only going to be able to realistically glide about a mile from an altitude of 1000', once the turn toward the runway is completed. That leaves no room(altitude) to linup and make a safe landing. 1 mile was a very poor guess... With the instructors I have flown with, flying a pattern that wide would be a good way to get beat upside the head with your knee board(while it was still attached to your knee) The OP's description of this pilots behavior, unless grossly overstated, does not sound like the actions of a prudent and safe general aviation/recreational pilot, at least none that I have ever known, flown or trained with.
You are most certainly right about the non pilot misjudging altitude...
westcliffe01
Veteran Member
The diagram below gives a laymans idea of the altitude maintained while on approach to land. As can be seen, when turning to intercept the runway it is still expected that the Min altitude be more than 500ft above ground level. Only structures within this part of the flight path would be approached closer than 500ft. Normally, you are shooting to put the wheels down as early as reasonable on the runway. By comparison, on takeoff rotation is usually part way down the runway, and the pilot is generally required to climb in line with the runway unless a deviation is needed to avoid a specific obstacle or terrain until one meets the 500agl requirement. It is not acceptable, nor prudent to initiate a turn off the runway and over private property at 100ft agl. Furthermore, on take off the airplane is moving into the wind, thus would climb away from an observer standing on the approach side of the runway. So situations where an aircraft makes close flyovers after takeoff and on landing approach seem pretty unusual.
This home video, shot by Martin Lunsford in 2005 shows perfectly how things can go wrong when you turn away from an airfield at too low an altitude. He had failed to open the fuel valve on the 5 gal tank and the engine ran until the carb float bowl was empty which got him as far as it did. YouTube - Ultralight Crash
This home video, shot by Martin Lunsford in 2005 shows perfectly how things can go wrong when you turn away from an airfield at too low an altitude. He had failed to open the fuel valve on the 5 gal tank and the engine ran until the carb float bowl was empty which got him as far as it did. YouTube - Ultralight Crash
rvaitor
Platinum Member
I'm a pilot and after reading several of the posts, pretty much feel both sides need to take a less confrontational approach to this. I live near a hospital and have helicopters flying over at all times of the night and day. Wish they would approach over the adjacent school or shopping center rather than the residential neighborhood.
But, as a pilot, this guy needs to do his best not be a nuisance. That hurts all of us who consider it a unique privilege to fly. Something that is and will be more and more restricted by folks who haven't enjoyed this privilege. My dream is to someday have a landing strip on my property. If I drive to our farm it's 6 hours, flying is 2+- airport to airport plus 40 more minutes from there. With a little quicker bird and the landing strip, I could cut another an hour off that, and that'd be awesome. In looking at my situation, I think I can work my approaches and departures such that I'm not 'buzzing' someone's home or chicken house or cows - it's common courtesy to attempt to be a good neighbor.
But they haven't made silent props yet, so there will be some noise. BTW, you don't have to have a licensed airstrip if you make less than a certain number of T/Os and Landings a month. If he actually has a registered airport, send me a PM with some GPS info and I'll be happy to contact him as a interested / not engaged party. If he's being intentionally abusive / or reckless then he may need to get his wings clipped.
Another option is to contact AOPA, or the local EAA(Experimental Aircraft Association) chapter, see what they may be able to do to help.
But, as a pilot, this guy needs to do his best not be a nuisance. That hurts all of us who consider it a unique privilege to fly. Something that is and will be more and more restricted by folks who haven't enjoyed this privilege. My dream is to someday have a landing strip on my property. If I drive to our farm it's 6 hours, flying is 2+- airport to airport plus 40 more minutes from there. With a little quicker bird and the landing strip, I could cut another an hour off that, and that'd be awesome. In looking at my situation, I think I can work my approaches and departures such that I'm not 'buzzing' someone's home or chicken house or cows - it's common courtesy to attempt to be a good neighbor.
But they haven't made silent props yet, so there will be some noise. BTW, you don't have to have a licensed airstrip if you make less than a certain number of T/Os and Landings a month. If he actually has a registered airport, send me a PM with some GPS info and I'll be happy to contact him as a interested / not engaged party. If he's being intentionally abusive / or reckless then he may need to get his wings clipped.
Another option is to contact AOPA, or the local EAA(Experimental Aircraft Association) chapter, see what they may be able to do to help.
I can only speak for where I live, but my county has a list of activities that require a special use permit. Some are because it could cost the county tax money by lowering property taxes (agricultural tax rate), some to make sure the activity fits (such as a home based trucking company). Others seem silly (exceeding 25 chickens on 10 acres). But I believe a home strip is on the list as well. You can probably go to the county planning dept (or county clerk) and get a good idea of what is and isn't allowed, as well as if there is a special use permit, and if you as an adjoining property owner were ever notified (presuming there is a special use permit).
Then you might be able to have a frank (and friendly) discussion with your neighbor on what you need and what he needs. I would hope for a solution that finds an answer for both of you. Including the possibility of flying after a certain time. Keep in mind any issues with 'established habits' on his part (by this taking 5 years to come to a head) that a beurocrat (sp) will attempt (red herring). If you happen to have a friend (of a friend) that is a local cop, have him/them/her over for breakfast occasionally and ask them to have a talk (presuming the above will not work).
Also, something I learned a long time ago, some times you have to find a way to get the women to talk. They have a way of relating 'feelings & emotions' about sick people and kids that will have more of an effect than a division of soldiers can have.
Having grown up in the landing pattern of a SAC base, I know what airplanes can sound like, and having been on this earth a little while, I know what a jerk can sound like (sometimes it's even me). There's room here for a solution if you have your ducks in a row and he doesn't. I would figure that as he doesn't keep his plane at his place he is probably a low hours or occasional pilot. Might even be of the type we had move in around us when I was a kid (Southern Cal boondocks). They figured that they were in the country and could ride dirt bikes all over and shoot at any old rock. Dad took a walk more than once with a scoped rifle and let them know he didn't appreciate the 'over flights' of bullets through our yard. I know, not particularly relevant, but it helps to understand what is going through the mind of your opposite -- a relative sense of space is not the same to each side. Houses that have more than 15' between them is a lot of space to urban America, where for some folks houses with less than 100 yards between them is crowded.
Best of luck!
Then you might be able to have a frank (and friendly) discussion with your neighbor on what you need and what he needs. I would hope for a solution that finds an answer for both of you. Including the possibility of flying after a certain time. Keep in mind any issues with 'established habits' on his part (by this taking 5 years to come to a head) that a beurocrat (sp) will attempt (red herring). If you happen to have a friend (of a friend) that is a local cop, have him/them/her over for breakfast occasionally and ask them to have a talk (presuming the above will not work).
Also, something I learned a long time ago, some times you have to find a way to get the women to talk. They have a way of relating 'feelings & emotions' about sick people and kids that will have more of an effect than a division of soldiers can have.
Having grown up in the landing pattern of a SAC base, I know what airplanes can sound like, and having been on this earth a little while, I know what a jerk can sound like (sometimes it's even me). There's room here for a solution if you have your ducks in a row and he doesn't. I would figure that as he doesn't keep his plane at his place he is probably a low hours or occasional pilot. Might even be of the type we had move in around us when I was a kid (Southern Cal boondocks). They figured that they were in the country and could ride dirt bikes all over and shoot at any old rock. Dad took a walk more than once with a scoped rifle and let them know he didn't appreciate the 'over flights' of bullets through our yard. I know, not particularly relevant, but it helps to understand what is going through the mind of your opposite -- a relative sense of space is not the same to each side. Houses that have more than 15' between them is a lot of space to urban America, where for some folks houses with less than 100 yards between them is crowded.
Best of luck!
rambler
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I really like your message, but - 300 feet???? My closest neighbor is about 1800 feet away, and that seems kinda close when their dog is barking or they're having a party......
I find this a valuable & interesting thread, it says a lot about dealing with people.
The FFA & others will look at this as 2 fellas with a grudge against each other, & lose interest in bothering with it.
In hind sight, I think that first visit probably shoulda been done with a bunt cake in hand and a smile, not with talk of me my & mine rights.
Now you can try to patch up a destroyed relationship between neighbors, or you can push this as hard as you can afford to make it 'right'.
Neither is easy.
--->Paul
