Kubota vs. Deere vs. Case vs. New Holland

[jenkinsph]

nola000,
FWIW, the 110 tlb has the same 3ph as a 4x20 series Deere. The fel has a standard skid steer quick attach and flat faced hydraulic connections. Kubota is the same way.
Removing the hoe even with a Laurin cab takes me about 10 minutes. In the standard configuration most of the tlb's have a four post rops/fops which is a lot safer than an agricultural two post rops. The 110 with the BB1284 box blade is 7280 lbs with the backhoe it is 7600 lbs, with the Laurin cab just over 8000 lbs. All of the weights I listed include a 72" heavy duty fel bucket. The 110 is also quite a bit taller than a 4x20 series whether canopy or cab same height, something to consider if parking it inside.

Here is a side by side pic of my 110 and 4520.

 

[dclynch]

My simple advice is to get a estimate to have someone come in with a dozer and clear it for you then you will not be in a hurry and be able to find the perfect tractor for you, and may find you will not need all the attachments required to do the job.

 

[94BULLITT]

So I guess my first question is, can I clear land with a tractor and a basic FEL? And by clear, I dont mean bush hog. I want to tear up any and all roots, till the top soil with my motorized hand tiller and spread seed to have a nice lawn. Im under the impression that a bush hog just chews everything up and leaves the roots. I was thinking that for now I could drill out the edge of the bucket and attach a tooth bar to dig up the brush by the roots until I can afford a proper grapple/root rake.

My real question and why I started the thread, is...
I made a spread sheet comparing a bunch of different models of tractor on the market right now so that I could make sense of all the different specs. I frequently read great things about both Deere and Kubota but I noticed that once I did the spreadsheet that Kubota's front end loaders were way behind the competition in capacity and hydraulic pump flow. Behind everybody, Deere, New Holland and Case. Is this a concern or is the difference negligible?

Yes you can clear land with a FEL. A grapple is great for clearing land. I am not sure if you have much need for a back hoe. If you have a few things that you need a back hoe for you can rent one.

The reason the kubota loaders don't lift as much as the other tractors you have listed is the 3430 is smaller than most you have listed and the 3830 has 2 loader options and it has the smaller loader.

 

[bumperm]

One, of many, nice things about a tractor with FEL and hoe, even up to its axles it can often be counted on to self rescue. I was able to do so when I foolishly decided to "knock down" a bunch of cattails with the FEL at a large pond after a dry summer. Water level may have dropped, but the dried out crust was thinner than I anticipated and under that was black muck. With the R1's looking more like smooth roller skate wheels, I put the bucket down level flat, then swung the hoe over to a dry patch and sashayed out sideways.

I couldn't do that with a skid steer.

bumper

 

[jenkinsph]

One, of many, nice things about a tractor with FEL and hoe, even up to its axles it can often be counted on to self rescue. I was able to do so when I foolishly decided to "knock down" a bunch of cattails with the FEL at a large pond after a dry summer. Water level may have dropped, but the dried out crust was thinner than I anticipated and under that was black muck. With the R1's looking more like smooth roller skate wheels, I put the bucket down level flat, then swung the hoe over to a dry patch and sashayed out sideways.

I couldn't do that with a skid steer.

bumper

There are times I could use a full size backhoe, not because the smaller one can't dig enough but for the reach. It would be handy to be able to reach across a soft spot or ditch twenty feet without falling in.

 

[nola000]

Dedicated TLBs like the Deere 110 and Kubota L35 still have a normal PTO that can be used with typical 3pt implements (with the hoe off, of course). You really aren't limited in what they're compatible with. As far as the loader, I'm not sure whether either/both come standard with an SSQA plate, but you could easily add one, and they would accept anything that would work on a skid steer or CUT.

Those dedicated TLBs, while seemingly perfect for me, exceed my cost equation but most importantly exceed my tow capacity for my truck and trailer. The trailer I can upgrade, but giving up my tow vehicle is a non-starter. Thats why I was looking at CUTs with a backhoe.

As far as hydraulics go, the simplified version is that the flow rate determines how fast the loader will raise, lower, and curl, and pressure determines how much the loader can actually lift. So, if you put the loader on a machine that has a pump capable of higher pressure, the loader will lift more. If that pump also has a higher flow rate, you'd also get faster cycle times. It's a bit more complicated than that, when doing comparisons, but that's the general idea.

Great info! :thumbsup: I wasnt aware of the relationship of the hydraulics to the FEL/backhoe performance.

If your tow vehicle can only tow 7700 lbs, then you'll need at least a dual 3500lb axle trailer, rated at 7000. That trailer will weigh somewhere around 1800lbs, so in theory, you'll be able to load around 5000lbs onto it. This trailer will cost you somewhere around $2500.

I was already planning on upgrading my trailer. I figure I can sell my trailer for about a $1000 and just put up the difference($500-$1000) for a heavier built used trailer. I need a trailer that uses the full capacity of my tow vehicle anyway and has trailer brakes which mine doesnt.

nola000,
FWIW, the 110 tlb has the same 3ph as a 4x20 series Deere. The fel has a standard skid steer quick attach and flat faced hydraulic connections. Kubota is the same way.
Removing the hoe even with a Laurin cab takes me about 10 minutes. In the standard configuration most of the tlb's have a four post rops/fops which is a lot safer than an agricultural two post rops. The 110 with the BB1284 box blade is 7280 lbs with the backhoe it is 7600 lbs, with the Laurin cab just over 8000 lbs. All of the weights I listed include a 72" heavy duty fel bucket. The 110 is also quite a bit taller than a 4x20 series whether canopy or cab same height, something to consider if parking it inside.

Here is a side by side pic of my 110 and 4520.

Most of the tractors you are looking at will NOT work on this setup. For example, a Deere 4120 is probably going to weigh somewhere around 3400lbs by itself, NOT counting the loader, which will probably be another 1000. Then add the weight of fluids, etc, and you're already pushing that 5000lb load capacity ..... BEFORE you even get to the backhoe. I don't have the specific weights of all the tractors you have included in your list, but you're going to run into the same issue with most of them.

The Kubota B26 is 4000lbs total (not counting fluids) so that gives you some wiggle room. But, as soon as you step up to an L39, you're at 7000lbs before fluids.

Even if you choose a mid-to-large machine that is a standard CUT, then add a Hoe, you are going to be overweight. So, it looks to me like if you want to have a Hoe, with the towing setup you have, you are going to have to stay small. Under 30hp.

I got all the numbers right here in my spreadsheet...the 4120 weights in at 4800lbs with the 400x/400cx FEL. Tow vehicle 7700lbs - 2000lbs(trailer weight) = 5700lbs of tractor weight max. It was hard to find information on the weight of the backhoe that goes with the 4120 but I think its 1375lbs. Not sure if thats with or without the bucket but I would want the skinny(12"?) bucket. That would put me at 6175lbs for the Deere 4120/FEL/backhoe. Thats probably out of reach of my tow vehicle as any trailer capable of carrying 6175lbs is going to weight more than 1525lbs putting me over my 7700lb tow cap. The Kubota L3430 w/ the cab also weights-in at 4800lbs so Im looking at the same situation.

What Im thinking is, since I have to buy a backhoe at a later date anyway, I have all the time I need, Im not doing this for a living(just occasional side work) and the backhoe would be used for mostly trenching for pipe, an occasional tree stump or shrub and maybe an occasional small pond, I noticed the Kelly B600 series backhoe weighs only 718lbs with mounting kit stuff and a 12" bucket. That puts me at 4800lbs(CUT) + 718lbs(backhoe) = 5523lbs + 2000lb(trailer) = 7523lbs for my 7700lb tow cap. That leaves me with 177lbs of extra tow cap for other tools or implements on board.

The specs on the Kelly B600 are...
Max Dig Depth: 6'-6"
Boom Lifting Power(boom straight out, dipper @ 90 degrees down): 640lbs
Bucket Power(fully curled @ cutting edge): 1870lbs
Bucket Pryout Power(partially curled): 4076lbs

Is that good enough for what I want to do?

If you DO want a backhoe, and you are expecting to trailer it around, then you're going to have to stick with a smaller machine than what you've mentioned. For example, take Kubota's 1st & 2nd TLB they list.

Im concerned that the B21/B26, while having pretty good specs on the loader and backhoe and will work with my tow vehicle, arent going to have the *** to run implements I might use later on with their HP in the 20s. Also I see their smaller frame might be a problem clearing thick woods. And they dont have a cab

So, the decision you'll have to make is this: Do you want a backhoe or not? From what I've seen on this forum, there's not a whole lot extra that you need to do to remove the backhoe from the TLB machines that have been listed, compared to a standard CUT with an add-on hoe. You can get them with the 3pt optional, so you can still use 3pt implements like normal, with maybe a few more steps.

I also own a new B3350 with BH77 hoe. The BX24 hoe will do much of what the BH77 hoe will do, but take more time doing it. For a SCUT, the BX is really pretty amazing.

Yes you can clear land with a FEL. A grapple is great for clearing land.

Like I said, in a pinch Im thinking I can use the FEL in place of the backhoe, it will just be harder and take more time. So a backhoe isnt absolutely needed but I want the option to add it later on and not have to worry about weight. But I also dont want to make the tradeoff of a smaller tractor. I want my cake and eat it too :ashamed: so Im trying to figure out a way to get the best tractor I can in HP, frame size, comfort(cab) so I have no regrets later and stay within a weight limit if I add implements later(backhoe being the heaviest) so I can tow it. If that means giving up backhoe specs to keep it light than so be it. The backhoe would be treated as just another implement to get a job done, not as the main use for the tractor. I would rather have a really nice tractor(the heart and soul of your rig) like the L3430HSTC and a lightweight, weak backhoe, than to have a mediocre tractor(Bxx00.Bxx10) with a better backhoe. No offense to B-series owners, I just dont want to limit myself or have any regrets in the future.

Good info so far, not sure I can add much. However, consider that if you do decide you want a backhoe, when purchasing used, it's almost always less expensive to buy it *with* the tractor as a package. However, when really good TLB deals come up, they don't last very long at all, so you have to check the ads every day.

Ive noticed

This is the best thing I've found for clearing land.

Yeah I bet. I should backup. My initial thoughts when looking for my first machine was actually a tracked skid steer with a grapple bucket because thats whats so common around my area. But then I though about all the other things I would want to do in the future besides land clearing. I mean think about it, after you clear your land and you start mowing it regularly, you may never clear land again except maybe occasionally on the side.

Like Gman said, the flow is only a factor of the cycle time and speed of hydraulic attachments. Depending on how and what you operate, it still could be pretty important.
Some machines, like the JD 110, have an exceptional flow rate AND a high system pressure (3000psi), compared to the 2500psi common in most CUT's. Consequently, it has more lift and breakout force than most CUT's as well as great cycle times.

Right. So I think I asked this in my last post. Can flow and pressure on a tractors hydraulic system be modified to improve? Or better yet replaced with a system from a bigger tractor with a higher capacity pump?

I am not sure if you have much need for a back hoe. If you have a few things that you need a back hoe for you can rent one.

My simple advice is to get a estimate to have someone come in with a dozer and clear it for you then you will not be in a hurry and be able to find the perfect tractor for you, and may find you will not need all the attachments required to do the job.

This is what lit a fire under my *** about getting my own machine. I got burned pretty bad by a so-called "equipment operator" who was really just a trash hauler guy who didnt even have his own equipment(rented it). I sat him down and walked through everything I wanted done and he agreed to $4000 for the whole project, that was just for him, not materials. All I asked was that he clear the brush back from outside my fence line on 3 sides of my property the width of his machine(he didnt even have to haul the brush away), the property fence line was a square plot of land 100' x 200', trash the rural fencing that enclosed that same plot of land, dig up a couple azalea bushes and 4" stumps, and dig down 4" of dirt in an area that was about 50' x 80' and spread gravel(that I paid for). By the end of the job he had left the azalea bushes, half-*** cleared the land around my fence line so now when I cut the grass back there I have to stop, turn around and come the other way and I hit a bunch of trash with my mower that he left behind, left two giant piles gravel in my yard that he refused to spread because he didnt want to spend anymore time renting the machine, but the worst of it was that he just flat out refused to understand what I was explaining to him about digging DOWN 4" before laying the gravel. Instead he seemed to be doing some kind of lot leveling and built up the gravel on that. I felt like R Lee Ermey, "4 INCHES PRIVATE PYLE, 4 F*****G INCHES!". Now for the rest my life I have to weed my driveway constantly. Where I live the weeds never take break all year.

I did learn a couple things for sure. One, never hire an equipment operator that doesnt have his own equipment, he'll always be in a rush to get it back to the rental yard and do a s**t job. Two, if the cost of the job is over $3,000, just buy a used piece of junk equipment and do it yourself. And three, if you want something done right you have to do it yourself. But of course I already knew that one. I thank my wife on a regular basis for not ponying up the dough for me to get my own machine like I originally wanted. Now a year later we're getting a machine anyway and could have saved that $4,000 and had no weeds to deal with, so I try to make her weed the driveway.

 

[bumperm]

Seems you might be painting yourself into a corner based on price, wants, features vs size and weight. Don't forget that a cab will add, depending on tractor size, something like 600 lbs to the package, along with a significant amount to the price tag. I recently purchased a new B3350, so I am very conversant with $Cost$ for a medium small CUT. But it sure is nice not to look like a frosty popsicle after blowing snow!

BTW, in most things a tractor is asked to do, the formula is time divided by weight, speed, and power. Smaller tractors can often do "big tractor" jobs, just takes longer. e.g. an earlier post talks about hydraulic pressure and flow. Consider that with lower pressure you can still get the force, it just takes a bigger diameter cylinder, and unless you have more flow, that work a little slower.

IMO a backhoe and front loader are two uniquely capable tools - - with the emphasis on unique. Having both broadens the usefulness of your tractor You might be able to do the job of one with the other, maybe, sometimes. But it's bound to be a frustrating and time consuming experience.

bumper