liens

[kthompson]

Years ago, Ford Motor Credit tried to say I was in default on a pickup truck, and they were mentioning repo. I wasn't in default at all, and was actually paid ahead, and had the cancelled checks with their endorsements to prove it. When they saw their mistake, they were apologizing by letter. The current owner should make sure the paperwork is right. The tractor may have been paid off, and they don't have the paperwork.

Had same issue with Bank of America few years back. This went on for two or three months. I do think he needs to find the seller and talk with him. I find it hard to believe any loan company went four years from no payment to finding a tractor that is registered with the company. If the claim is legit think they would want to work with the OP do as little harm to him as possible also.

As to the 1099 JD financial has his Social Security number or tax id number, if legit claim they may be able to help on this. Does that info go into court filings? If so they should have done such filings to go after repo I think but again I am not a lawyer.

 

[PILOON]

Having digested most of this trend I find it awful that the wrong person takes the hit and the 'perp' basically gets off free*.
(assuming he did not knowingly purchase a 'stolen' tractor)

*other than now having a bad credit rating but then he has the 'stolen cash'.

 

[two_bit_score]

This even happens to equipment dealers...as the following advice article demonstrates...
Protect Your Assets When It Comes to Trades | 2�12-�6-14 | Farm Equipment

Very good article. Even dealers acting in "good faith" are not above the law.



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[TheMan419]

Having digested most of this trend I find it awful that the wrong person takes the hit and the 'perp' basically gets off free*.
(assuming he did not knowingly purchase a 'stolen' tractor)

*other than now having a bad credit rating but then he has the 'stolen cash'.

Yes getting law enforcement interested in the issue will be slim chance at best. The perp committed fraud if he told OP he owned the tractor free and clear.

Of course I would make sure that JD had all their ducks in a row.

For those saying that the repo agent is committing theft if he has no court order that is not true in most all states. The repo agent can repo as long as they are not committing a breach of the peace. So if you are there and tell them to get off your property they have to leave. They cannot break into a locked barn/garage or whatnot. Indiana law is not clear if they have the right to open an unlocked door to get to the tractor. I suspect they do not.

If the tractor can only be found in a locked barn they have to go to court and get a court order. Of course you have to get notified of such and have a right to a hearing etc. However once they have the order they can bring the police and kick the door in literally if they need to.

 

[My Gym]

Most of the comments about repossesion that have been made in this discussion are based upon experience with Titled vehicles. If the title is in your name you own it. That is why if you owe money on a car they do not give you the title. That is why repo people can seize cars and trucks against your wishes. They can prove ownership on the spot to legal authorties. A lein it a very different animal. It is a financial interest not ownership, and you cannot just seize property. In some cases the debt has been sold to a collection agency who may not be quite honest. If $500 is still owed on a loan, it can still be in default with out due process in the courts you may be giving up a $50,000 tractor for a $500 debt. Without a title, ownership is a court and legal matter. Make them jump through the legal hoops and only transfer possession to a legal officer of the court with paperwork.

 

[two_bit_score]

I would not dismiss the interest of law enforcement getting involved in a theft of $25,000 without talking to them about it first.

Yes they might say 'it's a civil matter, nothing we can do'. But I've seen people prosecuted and sent to prison for lesser amount under similar circumstances.

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[TheMan419]

I would not dismiss the interest of law enforcement getting involved in a theft of $25,000 without talking to them about it first. Yes they might say 'it's a civil matter, nothing we can do'. But I've seen people prosecuted and sent to prison for lesser amount under similar circumstances. .

In my county good luck with that. It is not going to happen.

 

[kthompson]

You may wonder what has this to do with the OP but know a person in my area who had a theft operation of such as tractors and construction equipment. He would basically take orders for equipment and then have his person steal it and then another person to deliver it. He was caught in two different counties with stolen equipment... one the equipment on the trailer being hauled to the buyer and the other he went to the buyer to collect payment which was a police stakeout and were there to witness the selling and payment of the stolen machine. Do not remember how many machines was stolen by him and his group but a few any way. Want to know what the courts did with him? Well no time.Think a few months probation. He is a person who was actively stealing machines and selling them knowing it was fully illegal and mostly turned lose. So much in our legal system does not make sense to me.

You know I have bought and sold items for a few hundred to maybe a couple of thousand using CL and other methods over the years. I have never bothered to keep the name or address of a person I sold something to. So the idea you could sell something and honestly not know the name of the buyer a period of time later if for fact true with me unless I knew them before hand.

 

[Sprinklerman]

Here is what I dont like about the situation. I buy a tractor from the third owner , I run his name and there is no lien , 5 years later i take the tractor to the dealer and they say I dont own it . Unless I have the original bill of sale from the original owner i have no way to check . Even worse , if I buy a tractor from someone who brought it with them from out of state , and i only check my state ucc filings I am screwed again .

 

[quicksandfarmer]

OP should talk to a lawyer before doing anything. Not a lawyer, but some thoughts:
1. You may not really be dealing with John Deere. You may be dealing with a collection agency that bought for pennies on the dollar a debt that Deere wrote off, that happens all the time. The agencies then go back over the list trying to collect whatever they can, using whatever methods they feel like.

2. As others have noted, there are legal requirements for a lien to be valid. A lawyer can advise you on those.

3. If the lien is valid, Deere has the option of either collecting a tractor from you or cash from the seller. They will take the path of least resistance. You have no legal, moral or ethical obligation to make yourself the path of least resistance.

 

[atsah]

I'm guessing you're a Democrat. Says stupid things, gets offended when the stupidity is pointed out.

You guessed wrong, there are so many keyboard tough guys like you it's sad. Your a disgrace to the Republican Party. You are probably reading a "what happened " book as we speak, your a fake hobby farmer..

 

[TomSeller]

I have just read the 14 pages of this topic. Were are a country of laws and due process. The laws are there to protect buyers and sellers. A lein holder must file the paperwork and follow very specific rules to protect his interest. If the lein holder has not followed the rules he has voided his interest. If you have a bill of sale and proof of payment, you have acted in good faith. There is an axiom "possession is 9/10th of the law." Do not turn over possesion of item without proper documentation and only to an approved officer of the courts. Require the lein holder to take it to court and get a judgement. With a signed bill of sale and proof of payment and possesion of property and a valid lein holder, a crime has been commited by the seller. If you give up the item to the lein holder without due process, there is no crime and you have given up any right to the equipment. The lein holder will ask for return or demand return of the equipment most often when the lein holder knows he does not have a valid lein. If the lein holder takes with out going through the courts, file a theft report with the local authorities. If you do not you have given up any interest you have in the property.

Sounds about what I would have thought. Make sure the finance company has their ducks in a row before giving up the tractor.

 

[two_bit_score]

I have just read the 14 pages of this topic. ... ... ... ... The lein holder will ask for return or demand return of the equipment most often when the lein holder knows he does not have a valid lein. .

Sounds about what I would have thought. Make sure the finance company has their ducks in a row before giving up the tractor.

Nothing at all wrong about making sure the finance company has crossed all t's and dotted all i's correctly. However, read the above sentence and explain how it makes sense.

If the lien holder asks for his property back that is somehow evidence he has no valid lien? How does that make sense? What?



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[My Gym]

"If the lien holder asks for his property back that is somehow evidence he has no valid lien? How does that make sense? What? "


As with most in this discussion, you confuse a lien and ownership. It is not "his property". I can ask you for a million dollars, and if you willingly give it to me. I now have a million dollars, Thank you, very much, and good luck getting it back. If I say that you owe me a million dollars and you willingly give it to me. I "might" have committed a crime, but good luck getting it back. If I get the million dollars against your will or forceably, call 911 and file a police report, a crime has been committed.
If the equipment was leased and not a lien, then the seller sold property that he did not own and committed a crime. Force the legal system to get involved. Try walking into a pawn shop and walking out with your stolen chainsaw even with a police report with serial number.

 

[My Gym]

I did not answer your question two_bit_score

"If the lien holder asks for his property back that is somehow evidence he has no valid lien? How does that make sense? What? "

The lien holder is taking the easy way out and not due process. If he takes the easy way in this, he most likely took the easy way and did not file the necessary paperwork and thus a non valid lien. The lien holder is trying to save time and money by asking you to do something you may not have to do. He may use threats and intimidation, but these are also the tactics of scams, fraud, and swindlers. Make sure that the lien holder has a valid lien. If he uses threats and intimidation, file a police report. There is a good chance that it is fraud.

 

[CincyFlyer]

One thing that I pointed out that some have missed: just because a lender didn't fill a UCC lien does not mean that they cannot repossess collateral due to a default or other violation of the terms of the loan! It only means that if there are other lien-holders that they may no longer be "first in line", and they may have a harder row to hoe.

 

[two_bit_score]

"If the lien holder asks for his property back that is somehow evidence he has no valid lien? How does that make sense? What? "


As with most in this discussion, you confuse a lien and ownership. It is not "his property". I can ask you for a million dollars, and if you willingly give it to me. I now have a million dollars, Thank you, very much, and good luck getting it back. If I say that you owe me a million dollars and you willingly give it to me. I "might" have committed a crime, but good luck getting it back. If I get the million dollars against your will or forceably, call 911 and file a police report, a crime has been committed.
If the equipment was leased and not a lien, then the seller sold property that he did not own and committed a crime. Force the legal system to get involved. Try walking into a pawn shop and walking out with your stolen chainsaw even with a police report with serial number.

Now you are trying to parse words to get out of the box you created. Change 'property' to 'security interest' or as you said 'equipment' and we're still at the same place. In this particular context it's a distinction without a difference.

Your statement that if they ask for the equipment back indicates they have an invalid lien makes no sense.

It's just the normal first step to recovery of their security interest; putting the possessor on notice that they have a security interest in the property and requesting a resolution.


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[My Gym]

two_bit_score

"Now you are trying to parse words to get out of the box you created."

I have created no box I am not trying to parse words. It is not a court of law and we are not lawyers. Do not try to insult me. I do not have a dog in the fight. It is a discussion on line with total strangers. Words or terms make a huge difference. A lease is different than a bill of sale. A UCC filing has different rules in different states. Not all liens are valid, but they can have an effect on a sale. You can sell property with a lien in some cases if the buyer assumes the debt. Car dealers do it all the time. It is simply a discussion.



"It's just the normal first step to recovery of their security interest; putting the possessor on notice that they have a security interest in the property and requesting a resolution."

In my opinion, an normal first step is a certified letter putting the possessor on notice that they have a security interest in the property and requesting a resolution. At this point if the possessor hides, or sells, the property, he is potentially committing a crime.

 

[quicksandfarmer]

I did not answer your question two_bit_score

"If the lien holder asks for his property back that is somehow evidence he has no valid lien? How does that make sense? What? "

The lien holder is taking the easy way out and not due process. If he takes the easy way in this, he most likely took the easy way and did not file the necessary paperwork and thus a non valid lien. The lien holder is trying to save time and money by asking you to do something you may not have to do. He may use threats and intimidation, but these are also the tactics of scams, fraud, and swindlers. Make sure that the lien holder has a valid lien. If he uses threats and intimidation, file a police report. There is a good chance that it is fraud.

To add to this, there's a good chance the person the OP has been dealing with is not the actual lien-holder but a collection agency. Particularly since it's been four years since the sale. When a company decides that a debt is uncollectable it's common practice to sell the debt for pennies on the dollar, those debts get passed around like trading cards. Those guys cold-call lists of numbers, on the long-shot that one of them will pay off. They use deception, intimidation and outright fraud. These guys will say things like, "I'm calling on behalf of JD Credit" to make you think they're with the company, but they're not.

Read this article before doing anything: Inside the Dark, Lucrative World of Consumer Debt Collection - The New York Times

My advice (which is worth exactly what you paid for it) is to cease all contact with the debt collectors When they call, tell them they need to talk to your attorney and ask for a name and number that your attorney can call. If they hem and haw at that -- or just hang up -- they're probably fakers.

Since it's been four years, there's a good chance that JD Credit wrote the loan off as uncollectable as soon as they learned the tractor had been sold.

****, for all the OP knows the whole thing is a scam, there never was a lien in the first place.

 

[quicksandfarmer]

"It's just the normal first step to recovery of their security interest; putting the possessor on notice that they have a security interest in the property and requesting a resolution."

In my opinion, an normal first step is a certified letter putting the possessor on notice that they have a security interest in the property and requesting a resolution. At this point if the possessor hides, or sells, the property, he is potentially committing a crime.

Agree. Trying to settle something of this magnitude without a paper trail is sketchy as h***.