Massey Ferguson 4608 Lethal defects

   / Massey Ferguson 4608 Lethal defects
  • Thread Starter
#41  

Ok So here is the updates after Work Place Health and safety inspect the Tractor, now this will be a 3 part video set as it takes me 1 full day to 1.5 days to just upload this one video so its painful, but in this you get to hear step by step the whole thing as it unfolded from first seeing the tractor.

Garry
 
   / Massey Ferguson 4608 Lethal defects #42  
Too much reading for me, im outa here.
 
   / Massey Ferguson 4608 Lethal defects #43  
I chewed my way through your thread and the youtube videos, whew what a saga of how not to do things.
Comments, In one video you showed the tractor going down hill in neutral and speeding up and slowing down, my impression was the gearbox is binding. When you said that it can be adjusted by changing gear and that it does not change in 2 or 4wd, that definately points to the gearbox.
At the end of this hill you put the loader down and the front axle practically leapt off the ground, this after seeing in another video you only just lifted one front wheel off the ground at full revs. What is going on???
Also you used the term "bleed down" and demonstrated. "Power Down" would be more accurate as when the loader hit the ground it lifted the front wheel off the ground. If the oil was bleeding past the valves then the effect would have been as if you put the loader in float on the way down, leaving the weight of the tractor on the front axle.

Querrry is the joystick cable or electronic? Is the cable sheath crushed at some point? Can you disconnect both ends of the cable and test how well the cable slides in the sheath? When you used the joystick I had the impression it was very "draggy" and the joystick was not going to neutral/centre position.

Can you show the tractor jumping and stalling? This would force Agco's hand as it would be very bad PR.

Lastly your tractor has the wheels set on a narrow track. The wheels are a 2 piece design. Just remove them from the tractor and unbolt the centre dish and flip so the "hollow" faces out and refit to the tractor ,this will give you a wider track and a much more stable "feel" to the tractor. This is the cheapest option.
The 2nd alternative is to fit duals, even more stable as the wheels can not drop as deeply into a hole. Given your situation I would just do a dish flip, and save the money for lawyers.
Good luck.
 
   / Massey Ferguson 4608 Lethal defects #44  
Fergie4608...
I'm not a mechanic and don't claim to be but have operated machinery all my life...
My observations...
Looks like your FEL joystick is sticking...
A good dealer should be able to change out that unit and fix the bucket dropping...
Sorta befuddled that your dealer could not address that issue...
As far as rolling down the hill out of gear and the jerking of the drive while the wheels are turned...
Looks like a bad valve in the control module of the shuttle...
That would also explain the lurching forward of the unit...
That is my unsolicited advise on the problems...
Too bad your dealer has not addressed your issues...
Keep us updated on the progress...
I hope you get things worked out...
 
   / Massey Ferguson 4608 Lethal defects #45  
Too much reading for me, im outa here.

Yes, I was just thinking "what a long-winded drama" whilst trying to focus on the facts. I watched some of the video footage and reached the same conclusion. It needs to be brief, concise, accurate and straight-to-the-point, but was just too long and drawn-out.

There are, nevertheless, serious faults with:
a - the machine, which require rectification under warranty,
b - the Dealer's repair strategy, reactions to faults not rectified, and
c - AGCO's lack of remedial action and on some occasions delays in further action.
Could the Dealer not loan you a unit while yours was in their workshop?


I can understand Garry's exasperation, frustration, anger and worry. Add to the mix more than a few frightening experiences and it becomes a machine he doesn't want to use. Who can blame him? But at the same time, the Dealer and the manufacturer need to stand behind their product.

Up front ... all my machines are 40+ years old. They're very strong, robust, and virtually unbreakable. I've never claimed to have a huge amount of experience, but I've learnt where the limits are ..... seen the edge without going over it, so to speak.

Regarding the "drag/binding/reluctance to move" fault: Does this seem similar trying to move backwards, as it does forwards - that is, does the resistance seem as severe in both directions?
My first thought was that it sounds as though the transmission is trying to partially-engage additional gear or additional range. Up front - I know nothing about it's design. On a few occasions I drove an old Ford 3000 with a "Select-speed" transmission, and found if the lever was not exactly centred in position for the gear engaged, it would "load up" the engine heavily because it seemed a clutch or band for the next (higher or lower) gear was also being partially applied. A light tap would centre the lever and instantly relieve the problem. I suspect an internal pressure leak is the probable cause, given it doesn't occur on some occasions - not clearance problems. It is likely to be in the F-R shuttle, being hydraulically-shifted.

The steering issue has to be rectified immediately ..... that is an accident waiting to happen.

Loader control valves sticking also falls into the same category as above.

The issue of ballast weight and front axle load: I believe this appears to have been somewhat misunderstood. I can see both Garry's and AGCO's as well as all others' viewpoints, and what I think has been missed is the relationship between axle weight and grip level. The strength of the front axle drivetrain may be designed for the weight and therefore grip of only the tractor itself. While they permit the addition of a loader of a certain specification, that will significantly alter the grip of both front and rear axles. Especially with the bucket full, the front axle grip will be significantly increased. They will then be able to drive much more before before breaking traction. Therefore the drive components to the front wheels will have to cope with a higher load (torque load). Without rear ballast the rear axle grip will be notably reduced, which will only compound this issue, because they cannot "push" as much as they should. Ballast weight, wheel weights and loaded tyres are all options for combatting this problem. Stability will also be increased, as I have said elsewhere.

Lack of lifting capability is also a no-brainer - who can use a loader that can't lift any weight? I'm still amazed at what my 40y/o loader will lift.

Lurching shuttle: This also has to be rectified immediately. This is an 80HP tractor. Harsh engagement of any transmission elements (clutch packs or bands) will not only damage drive-train components, it could easily cause loss of control and compromise safety.

Bottom line - we all want to hear it all has been fixed properly.
I hope it is soon too - this has gone on for much too long.

I also note Garry appears to reside not far from me. I can only say our local MF dealer appears to be quite the opposite, but again I've only ever bought parts from them.
 
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   / Massey Ferguson 4608 Lethal defects
  • Thread Starter
#46  
Thanks for that Redman135,
1 I have no clue where the binding is, I have changed my mind a few times and wondered if it could be a rear diff situation as at one point it was really hard to get the diff lock in but all that doesn't seem to be the same now.
2 It does look like at some stage it will turn legal as I did film the testing that the Mechanic did and I did tape a small amount of that when I worked the tractor but I will show that in court and once that happens then I will make it fully public at that point. See it was the dealers Mechanic so they have all the records of this so will wait till then.
3.
The loader as far as I can see actually sits on top of the actual Valve Bank, it's one of those tricky things that if I start pulling things apart to much while its under warranty then I will give them that right to wipe my warranty, now I know you could argue that they are doing nothing at all now, but until it officially runs out then I don't want to give them cause. Agco did send me an email to say that their 2 men would be here Monday to inspect the tractor but I never recieved any notice on Friday so I have my doubts.
I know this seems nutz but the Head of Technical Support said that widening the stance will cause more load to many of the failing parts of the tractor like the front Diff that blew so again I am not keen to alter to much, I will keep the pressure on them with this publicity and even add to it shortly.
Thank you so much for taking the time to look into this.

Garry
 
   / Massey Ferguson 4608 Lethal defects
  • Thread Starter
#47  
Turbys_1700

Thanks so much for that, it's way past the dealer now to the point that I only deal with Agco Australia although nothing at the moment is happening there, they are supposed to be inspecting the Tractor tomorrow but I did not get any confirmation as to this. Its the damage that the Fualty Shuttle caused and the other Faults that mean the tractor must be replaced as it's that reliable, Your 100 % on the money that they Dealer is to Blame, but then I have had to Contact Agco 20 times with such terrible response, that I still can't believe their way of dealing with it, But I will let you know how it goes from here.

Garry
 
   / Massey Ferguson 4608 Lethal defects #48  
The statement in point #3 where they say there would be increased load on the front axle is correct. The real question is how much extra load?
Widen the REAR wheels is what I meant and would still do for saftey reasons. In all your posts there was no mention of rear axle problems, only front axle trouble. The extra loading would still be less than with dual wheels. My father ran duals on his 178 for 26 years with no axle/bearing trouble
Worst case if legal action fails or you just don't have the money for court, can you swap in the 12x4 mechanical gearbox (not multipower) this would get the tractor safely mobile,leaving just the hydraulics to sort.
Thanks for that Redman135,
1 I have no clue where the binding is, I have changed my mind a few times and wondered if it could be a rear diff situation as at one point it was really hard to get the diff lock in but all that doesn't seem to be the same now.
2 It does look like at some stage it will turn legal as I did film the testing that the Mechanic did and I did tape a small amount of that when I worked the tractor but I will show that in court and once that happens then I will make it fully public at that point. See it was the dealers Mechanic so they have all the records of this so will wait till then.
3.
The loader as far as I can see actually sits on top of the actual Valve Bank, it's one of those tricky things that if I start pulling things apart to much while its under warranty then I will give them that right to wipe my warranty, now I know you could argue that they are doing nothing at all now, but until it officially runs out then I don't want to give them cause. Agco did send me an email to say that their 2 men would be here Monday to inspect the tractor but I never recieved any notice on Friday so I have my doubts.
I know this seems nutz but the Head of Technical Support said that widening the stance will cause more load to many of the failing parts of the tractor like the front Diff that blew so again I am not keen to alter to much, I will keep the pressure on them with this publicity and even add to it shortly.
Thank you so much for taking the time to look into this.

Garry
 
   / Massey Ferguson 4608 Lethal defects #49  
I read your whole thread and saw the long video which started at the shed area and went to the mulch pile.
To be successful at getting what you want, IMHO, you need to cut way way down on the rambling on verbal, endless, no paragraph breaks writings here on TBN.
You're NOT helping yourself in this way.

Here's what I suggest you do. IF you're going to write things here find a way to break it down; maybe have someone else edit it BEFORE you post it. Whether dyslexic or ADD or something similar of both, people need to be able to understand what you're trying to, or are actually saying without having to read War and Peace in it's long version....

DON'T post corporate letters here with company letterheads and Agco corporate people's names; you could easily have this turn hard against you, and be sued for slandering people in a public forum. What you say about people ripping you off, the salesman lying etc., and your dealer being incompetent, etc. IS actionable if they want to make a case. Remember, they have more money than you will ever have, and if you piss them off enough they will come after you to stop you in your tracks, EVEN if you are right about what you are saying.

The thing is to be smart about how you go about getting what you want.
I empathize with all your dealer and Agco gripes/concerns and valid worries about being hurt and wanting other to know about it. BUT, when you chase after a corporation and say what you are saying is facts; it's not really facts, it's your OPINION. Your opinion is important, BUT it's not facts you've detailed, so much as your personal experience with your MF tractor.

You can decide to continue with your relentless pursuit of MF/Agco, etc., BUT ask yourself, do you really want to spend all your time doing this, OR do you want resolution to the problems with this, what seems to me to be a big LEMON tractor?!
If it were me I'd want resolution.

1st, they're NOT obligated to give you another tractor. They ARE, while under warranty required to fix issues through their dealer network; that's about it. You keep slamming the selling dealer relentlessly, and that's not helping matters either. They tried to fix the tractor at various times and haven't done a good job by anyone's standards. That's one issue. Dealing with Agco is another. Their letter and so on is still another.

Here's what I might do if I were you.
I'd contact whomever you can talk to at Agco and tell them politely, very politely, that you would be more than willing to accept what they consider to be their best offer to you to buy you out of your ownership, give you a replacement, similar model, brand new tractor for you to cease making ANY more videos, or writing anything about them on any internet forums; and you will sign a letter saying so when they exchange your current tractor for a new one.
If they won't agree to that offer from you, what do they see as a satisfactory to both parties solution to your problematic tractor. Let them tell you what they would be willing to give you, basically in exchange for your silence going forward.

You don't have the power you seem to think you have. Right now it's a stalemate- you think you're kicking their azz with the videos and such, but you're not. They can hold out until you go completely berserk from frustration, or get hurt when something goes wrong with the tractor. As it stands now they've cut your balls off of your tractor and rendered it less useful than a rock. They can just run your warranty time out and leave you stranded by the side of the road; oh wait- they already have.:confused3:

See my point- they have the power. You have a broken tractor- which could easily be referred to as a lemon. It IS in your best interest to try to work something out with them, but for you it WILL take listening rather than talking at them. I suspect they are tired of listening to what you have to say. Use constructive psychology and give them what they want - you to shut up and go away. If you give them what they want, you could get what you want. You'll never win a court battle with Agco; they'll bury you, and the tractor in a hole their profits dug long ago.

Trust me here; I've gone to bat for tons of people here on TBN, and it hasn't just been for Kioti tractor owners. I get it, buying what turns out to be a lemon sux big time. Salesmen lie all day long, dealers tell customers whatever they think you'll believe all day long. Dealer and other mechanics do what the service manager tells them to do, and often get it wrong. Manufacturers make mistakes and sometimes the engineering is crap, the machine is a lemon, or a Monday or Friday job and the retail customer gets screwed. The World isn't a fair place in way too many ways, BUT if YOU want this issue resolved you have to get them to want to play ball with you. The direction you're going currently they don't want to, nor do they have to meet you halfway.

Slow things down, write clear, concise sentences, edit what you write, or get someone to do it for you. No harm in enlisting help to get the job done.
I'm with you, even though it may seem like I'm being harsh, I'm doing my best to give you constructive criticism to get you some perspective on where you stand with this situation as an outside observer.

I'm hoping this helps you. I agree it sucks and I feel for you and your farm and livestock/horses, etc. It's NO FUN having a broken, useless tractor. So what are you going to do to get it resolved- so you make forward progress, not spinning your broken diff in knee deep mud?!:thumbsup:
 
   / Massey Ferguson 4608 Lethal defects
  • Thread Starter
#50  
Wow, Coyote Machine, That's Fantastic advice and I don't in any way see the Harshness, as I can see what your saying in between what I am trying to get resolved. I have said enough in relation to how it all fits together but when I got told last week that I can't use it anymore here then I feel as though in Australia we need to know that because our laws actually make it an offence so many people will be unaware of that particular problem.

Can you tell me about the Kioti Tractor are they poor quality?

The only thing different that I would say is that in those ramblings many people have come forward with their stories and some have very expensive equipment but Agco left them hanging, So to that end it does help for people to know who and what happened so they don't buy that equipment, There have been far bigger giants then Agco will ever be that ended up with the same attitude to the end user, they took businesses that could not be busted all the way to extinction which is where they should have been. I know it's not the best way to look at the situation but if we do not talk and pass on experiences then there is no chance of Change. The Manufacturing industry as we know it world wide needs checks to stop us drowning in poor quality or Much worse Good Quality thats badly handled. I Truly thank you for even taking the time to help me see my mistakes and also the goals here.
 

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