Massey Ferguson 4608 Lethal defects

[Coyote machine]

Fergie 4608,
Thanks for seeing where I am coming from. I'm on your side, I totally get it we're all buried up to our necks in ***** quality half-azzed products that are unsafe and pose life threatening dangers to unaware buyers and owners. It suz big time, and yes we do need to make noise or we will just keep being rolled over by corporate think a-holes.

As far as Kioti goes, I've owned two since 2009, never having owned a tractor, and not being a farmer, or growing up using farm equipment so I learned that my first DK-35 3 cylinder diesel was a little underpowered for what I needed it to do FEL capacity wise. I traded it to my current 4 cyl, DK-40 and have basically been satisfied since.

When I say I've help people here on TBN with Kioti and other brand tractor issues, I have some extensive automotive, electrical and mechanical experience under my belt, and I try to get people on track with their focus as to how to get their issues resolved. Every tractor brand has some issues as does any electro-mechanical piece of equipment, but I feel Kioti does an excellent job of manufacturing mostly trouble free tractors for the price point they are selling them at.

They go up to 115 HP now, IIRC. Here's an idea to ponder: maybe if you could walk away from your MF and recoup most of your initial investment, a Kioti, (or what may be referred to as a Daedong, (Kioti's parent co/manufacturer from S. Korea) tractor in AU. would get you back to being a satisfied tractor owner? I'm fairly sure there are a number of Aussies here who have whatever Kioti calls itself in your part of the World, and are mostly happy with their tractors.

Back to your current tractor dilemma: I really think you do need to keep at it with Agco, but maybe less confrontationally? If you could get them to make some sort of satisfactory solution to replacement of your tractor- even if it means you contribute something toward a bigger or different model possibly?

I don't know what the exact solution might be, but why don't you say here what exactly you would want for them to do for you and maybe collectively we can find a way for you to get it.

BTW, I'd really like to visit your part of the planet some day. I hear it's a fun place to hang out and I often find Aussies in my travels in Europe and elsewhere. Most are out on day passes from the colony! Just kidding, of course!:laughing:

 

[Fergie4608]

I am still wearing my Ball and Chain as we speak, I would really like that if ever you want to rock on down it is a Very safe place not like the rest of the world is these days.
Agco reps are supposed to be coming today so yes I took your advice and toned it down and I offered them a soft version of what I would like to happen so as to try to get something offered, So will wait and see how we go from here.
I have a company that has been pushing the Kioti's tractor and they rav about how good it is, Look Hyundai's are unbelievable and the things that Korea make are definately good enough quality by a long way, they list people using them in all sorts of different works so some have huge hours in work under there belt. The only thing I felt was that the diff didn't look as large as even my Massey and we are talking about a 100 Hp I was looking at, now having said that he said the way they do their diff is the strongest design. My Tractor work really is mostly loader work and Slashing/ Brush Hogging so its not ploughing deep under huge loads, and for getting access through Muddy terrian. It's funny that I draw so much from the supposed security of new, and of Brand Name.
I can tell you that if the dealer had fixed the issues on the tractor in the first place I think the damage may never have happened, but saying that, the Binding is definately cause by them in some way so I guess that is irrelevant.
I am very concous of what price bracket you buy in rather then expecting a Kioti to be as trimmed out as a $120 K top model of the leading brands where in nearly every case I see, they are actually double the price of the cheap range in the same Brand line.
Well I guess today I will get to see what ends up being the fall out of this, I think from everything I have heard from many people, Agco has a hearing issue and that is when its difficult they just run and hide in the corner rather than even looking at the facts to see whether something is a small problem being made large or it is a large problem growing that a very small amount of effort now will totally fix it, their feet really seem to be stuck in the mud in Fear rather then Growing. It's funny how many Brand loyal Customers they have alienated with their in action, Just like me how many promises they make and never intended to call back or follow up, That is the biggest thing I hear of everyones complaint that is world wide, their marketing is supreme so like my tractor they bring a completely new platform through and they are going to have bugs, I don't have a problem with that, and I can understand they are learning as they go but at the end of the day they must be talking to their customers and that is something that no one at Agco are doing, and then they will promise you the earth and abandon you straight away from there. But I guess that is the real point isn't it, I am talking about things because I care about the name and they simply have to many hassles to bother with all the others and that is where they are at and expecting something different rather then adapting to get what I want from the system is smarter then smacking your head against that wall.

So where about's are you in the world?:mur:

 

[Coyote machine]

1st of all, I wish you excellent results when you deal with them. I suggest no matter what try to keep your temper, and be the better man about what they offer, or don't. They're going to do only what they want to anyway, so you may or may not have any influence in their doing what is right, vs. just doing what they feel like you may deserve, from their POV.
And in the end they will show their true colors; and you can then step back and make your decisions about what to do next without getting into a pissing match.

I get that the safety issue is a big deal and so for that matter is how they deal with faulty product remedies, BUT you have work to get done and a life to live; which unfortunately for all of us is too short to waste too much time on fools and idiots who just don't get the picture of what treating customers right is all about. You've brought to a lot of people's attention the dangers, but ultimately you have to take care of # 1 and that is YOU and your farm and animals.

Kioti diffs may not look as strong as some other brands from a visual perspective, BUT I can tell you that the parent company, Daedong is a major manufacturer of heavy equipment in their part of the world, and like Kia and Hyundai, they are coming up; like Toyota did in the day from Japan.

In my mind, and from my use and experience to date, and I have logged over 1500 hours on my two Kiotis, with a 1000# subframe backhoe attached as rear end ballast, their tractors may not have all the bells and whistles that some brands have, but for their price point in many instances they actually offer more as standard equipment instead of having most everything one wants/needs as a pay extra option. In Canada, for instance it's this pecking order: Deere, Kubota, Kioti. Being third is not too shabby considering what their competition and pricing is on the top two. There is hardly anyway that one would be able to buy into the top two in a ag level tractor for what one receives in a Kioti, for the money spent, IMHO.

I'm almost certain you would be really amazed at what an 80-100 HP tractor Kioti would provide to fill your needs around your farm. Why not check out the Kioti owners forum here on TBN to read about those who own Kiotis and their level of satisfaction with their machines?

I'm in the USA, you know, the place the Russian's bought lock, stock, and barrel recently at auction!?:laughing:

G'Day Mate !:thumbsup:

 

[Fergie4608]

Oh Matey, So are you moving out soon:confused3:
It makes me sick at what all our service men and women sacrificed and where our Countries are now but then I guess the same arguement applies that we won't be able to change it.

I will have to talk to my Wife about all of this stuff and see what comes back about it from here. I feel allot better talking to you, I am a big Hyundai and Kia Fan, Korean Sth Fan, I think allot of the other rubbish is actually that in Tractors so I am cool with it having what I saw in the tractor. I will keep my mouth shut until they tell me what is the direction they are going to take, but I won't tip my hand as the dealer that now is going to fix the tractor is the same one that sells both Massey and Kioti so if I start talking to soon it will cost me money either way, and I can't get rid of the tractor until its fixed !!!!

So they saw all of the faults but the steering is random and I believe it's caused by something else which seems now to be the Shuttle, as the loader and rear spools are on their own circuit where the other one share the Shuttle which is the way it showed up many times. Oh well time will tell.

 

[Coyote machine]

Thanks Fergie,

I don't know what to do as to the States. I spend about 3 months a year now outside the States in the islands to avoid winter here. I'm able to claim Canadian citizenship too as a dual citizen of both countries, but what's left of my family is all here in the States. I used to have relatives down under, but never got out to see them; they were one generation up from me and are now likely long gone....
Oh well, we can talk further another day about this stuff...

It occurs to me that instead of pushing for a repair to a lemon I'd try my best to get them to just take it back and see if you can move into a right sized Kioti. I think maybe a 90 horse or thereabout would do what you want it to. I'd approach it as; ...'this is what would make me a satisfied customer- that you, MF and Agco took care of me, and I just chalk it up to a situation gone wrong for whatever reason, no hard feelings'. It can't hurt to ask- the worse they can do is say no, and that still doesn't stop you from getting a different brand eventually.
I feel strongly that no matter what they do to your MF it will never be right. It is a very unfortunate situation, but you got lemons so you have to make lemonade out of it, somehow.
They might even be glad to have you gone from their radar completely into another brand; and I'd be amazed if you were disappointed in a high end Kioti of the HP range you need.
It would be a fresh start, and who knows what they would do with your existing tractor. It would probably end up in an auction and be sold as is, no warranty, so they can completely wash their hands of ever knowing about it....
If you and they can walk away in different directions and call it a day, everyone would 'win' in so far as the situation being over once and for all, and that would be huge for you, in the long run.

As an example I've got a Husqvarna AWD 322T Ride mower that I've owned for about 2 seasons now. It has 2 transaxles, and the front one came out of the factory with a palm sized glob of silicone jammed in at the axle shaft. It leaked like a sieve. It never should have left the factory floor to be delivered to a retail customer! I had it replaced under warranty at about 30 hours. Now I've got just over 100 hours on the machine, in it's second season of use and the new trans is leaking oil. I don't even want to deal with it because I'm confident they will say it's off warranty and so on. It's a small investment of under $6000 total cost for the mower, BUT just like your MF tractor, I'm supposed to replace the transaxle every 70 or so hours?! What kind of nonsense is that? I will document the fail on video and with pics, take it to my selling dealer, ask them to bring the Husky regional rep in to play and see what happens. I expect nightmare and excuses and being told I'm out of luck- warranty expired, sorry sir....

Just like you I can't just park it and not use it, or go buy yet another mower without some resolution to this one's issues. Man I just hate being in the situation of being at the mercy of manufacturers who put everything onto us, the retail buyer. I've had similar situations with Electrolux dryers, Viking pro grade beverage coolers, Waste King disposals, Buderus boilers, the list is endless, and I know in NONE of these situations am I at fault in any way. I buy the best I can afford, and do research into the product before buying.

In the case of the cooler my selling dealer gave me a different brand, U-line, no charge, even after Viking replaced the original, no charge with a brand new unit, that also failed miserably. Waste king replaced the original disposal which just locked up while under warranty with a new one. Then sent me an email telling me to discontinue using the new one because it could implode sending shrapnel all over the place!? Again a new one, at their expense and labor to remove/replace it.

It drives one nuts just having to deal with all the broken crap products that these companies keep spewing out at us. And, like you I'm not one to take it sitting down or just lie down and take the beating. I try to reason with them once I have someone to listen, usually via email, since they can't escape the paper trail. And in the end, just like with your MF, they just want me gone from their lives so they can beat the next 'customer' with the big corporate stick - which surprisingly most folks seem to just take the beating?!:confused3:

Anyway, I'm really hoping your meet with the reps goes well and in your favor. I anxiously await the outcome....
Let us know what's going on....:thumbsup:

 

[Coyote machine]

FWIW, with my 40 HP Kioti it is a HST model, not a shuttle shift like yours. And all the hydraulics are going from the HST reservoir and I believe 2 separate pumps. One pump controls the power steering and so on, the other controls fluid flow to the FEL and transmission functions like the H,M,L of the range selection for moving the machine at a certain 'gear' ratio/speed. The previous is from memory and could be incorrect but here's my point:

So it wouldn't surprise me if any power steering issue you may have could be tied into the pump that also could power your shuttle shift, i.e. it all goes in and out of the same fluid reservoir(s) and when/if they detuned the machine to render the loader gutless that move likely affected other systems too.

Now consider that in a World gone right, they might be able to 'fix' all the issues with your MF. Somehow I doubt it, what with their track record so far....
But, it may be that they want to have one more go at it- to which if it were me I might say, have at it, but if I go to pick it up and it's still weird, I'm not interested, and just give me a credit toward a Kioti at the dealer you mentioned and wipe out my loan, or some such game plan that they will agree to so you both go away feeling not so screwed.

 

[Coyote machine]

G'Day mate! What's happening on your end? Progress report please

 

[jeepcj7]

G'Day mate! What's happening on your end? Progress report please

I ma starting to think you 2 should friend each other on Facebook or something.....

 

[Fergie4608]

Coyote Machine,
Sorry Matey sometimes this thing tells me when someone has made an entry into it, and obviously other times nothing at all, so I have not been in to check.

Ok Statis report is I have had legal advice and that is going to prove to be very interesting in a very short time, I believe that Agco is going to be finding my phone number very shortly.

1 Agco attended my Property to test and check tractor they spent approximately 2 hours here and found all of the Lethal defects that I had reported to them many times. According to the Manager of Tech Support his Laptop Failed and he could not find my details to contact me to arrange the visit on the Monday, which I find extremely strange but they came here on Last Tuesday 18/07/2017

Item 1 they had me demonstrate the Binding on the 45 Degree slope and were speachless, the Rep said in his defence, all he had to work with was a flat car park I had warned them about that Fact, I said that is why I offered, That before work was carried out, they atttend real time operations here, so I could show the defects in a real time work enviroment, which they ellected not to do. He Felt Brakes might be Dragging so he hoped on, and spent an hour dragging against low range, stabbing the Brake pedal to release, a possible Jambing brake, this did nothing but wear my Brakes out, now my Brakes are stuffed and the pedal goes to the floor, and is needing adjustment, I did say its been 5 months with this Dragging and I have had no Brake wear in that time, in one Hour I have no pedal left, and he did not improve it in any shape or form.
Item 2 the Loader, He could not belive the loader function it Jambs in the Float position, and it sticks both up and down, he also says there is a restriction there somewhere that I cannot get full up, He said that when the dealer split the Tractor they obviously did not put that back together correctly, he did not comment on why the Loader Valves stick both going up and coming down but did say it needs fixing. He also did not check the lift capacity of the Machine while there as they had nothing to use.
Item 3 The Steering just completely dissapearing has Agco completely Baffled but I did learn allot from all this stuff in actually dealing with them, Agco feel that the steering is a rather important function and that is why all the other hydraulics are on one circuit and the Steering only share function with the Actual Shuttle, I always thought the steering dissapearing was related to SHuttle then Loader trim = no fluid left for Steering but from discussions with the experts it appears that its Shuttle that may rob Fluid from Steering, But today I actually have a much more likely idea of the failure but will save that one for more testing.

item 4 is the Tractor stalling out on hills, robbed of power by Hydraulics and then steering, they say they need a Dyno and much more research on that.

Item 5 The Binding is getting worse as winter continues, this was when the diff blew originally and although I am not doing hard work with the tractor at this time, it concerns me that its increasing, they say more research and study needs to be done.

Item 6 I say this tractor is like a different animal every time it is started, the Hydraulics can never lift like before, but then sometimes can lift something, and its random, Many of you have said and I agree is the Pump going bye Bye, its like sometimes there, and then not, so again its more research.

IMPORTANT IMPORTANT.
At this point there is moves to talk about Replacing the Tractor, But I believe they are considering it to be a financial adjustment which is not actually going to happen that way. With the Advice I have recieved what I have been told to do has about 4 steps to it, 1 is to increase the Safety warnings through here and U Tube and social media as it is my Responsibility by Law for my Duty of Care.
2 I am to Send a Letter of Demand Directly to Agco
This is a game changer to anyone with Serious Safety defects in Products supplied by Agco or any other dealer/ Manufacturer
3 with that letter I am to CC the Federal Minister for Ag in Australia into the correspondence, also My Federal minister for my electorate, My State Minister, as well the ACCC, Work Place Health and Safety Australia in All States, Office Of Fair Trading, Being a Battling Farmer does mean that many of these people are actually surprisingly keen to be seen helping the Small guy.
4 is then to forward all of this including my Official complaint that I gave to Work Place Health and Safety to the Media and in that all of the Correspondence to Agco and the 4 times that they responded in 21 months, to Main Stream media, that is Television, and print media. Given that these are all serious safety breaches then the feeding frenzy will be intense and the fact as I said before that each time they recieved a notice of intent and an offer to find a solution does not look Favorable that they ignored completely their duty of care responsiblities with no correspondence, not does this little Fact, they attended Tuesday, I wrote On Wednesday and still have heard nothing from them at all. It proves their complete dissregard for my Safety from the Product that has been found by them to be defective and By agencies that are responsible for Satey to be Potentially Lethal to oppertator and other persons on the Ground.
I expect this tractor to soon be replaced in a deal, I will let you know the outcome shortly.

My Post here is not for the repair of this tractor or the Faults of this Tractor but the Safety Hazzard it poses to people operating it, it is also to educate people in how to get Agco to Fix things and Dealers that Fail Customers, as has North Pine Motors Qld have done with this specific Tractor. Now I know so Many of you worry about being sued, But when the defects are lethal, they are proven, and now once again, have been seen by Agco Agents, then its my Duty of Care responsibility by Law to inform you the Public as to the Failings of the Parties responsible for the repair, and the Safety of the Product they sell.
This is important to understand that Agco for years have been ignoring people and have gotten so good at it in my case that they consider me to be a bad guy, But what they Fail to acknowledge at their own perile is this Fact, Each time I contacted Agco Australia with Emails and Paperwork I listed the defects and I also listed the lethal nature of the defects, I then contacted Agco Global in USA and gave them the same information, as this is a serious breach of Health and Safety, I can State to you, that as of the 22/07/2017 I have not been contacted by Agco USA or Agco Australia to resolve these potentially lethal defects, On Monday the 17th when they were supposed to inspect the Tractor the Manager, at sometime prior to that date, had a laptop melt down and lost all my emails and contact details. They must have also forgot which dealer sold me the Tractor and all of the other details, I know for a Fact that Agco USA had been in touch with Australia at some time Prior to that date as some of the Facts quoted to me, where related to information I had given there.
I was contacted yesterday by the other dealer, that they are supposed to be using in the future, He said that Agco said that he was supposed to come and look at the Tractor for the purpose of quoting the replacment of it and Agco are looking at some help, this will most definately not be a suitable option and needs serious rethinking on their part.
Now I know you all hate my long winded story but, Agco Attended Tuesday, I wrote Wednesday to list all of the Faults and again, specifically how they are life threatening, and its important you do this, because when it goes to the next level, this is how they judge neglegence, It does not matter that they do not respond, I can prove I wrote on that date and by them not responding, if they were to take action against you, which they will not do, because Court will look at all your attempts to find a solution and their not responding, Shows how seriously they considered your safety to be to them.

Agco is so used to people just giving up, that they use this tactic all the time, I have had so many Hundreds of stories from average people who should have been looked after, but instead they Gave up and just took it. When it is a serious safety breach then I cannot stress to you enough, Document it and Keep my details as I will help you find the door and then Kick it in. Once one person sorts this mess out then others will have a much easier time of getting Justice. Even if I got nothing done about this, even if they never replace this tractor, its been worth it because of all you amazing people and the knowledge that I might just save someone elses life or even Families Hardship that we have suffered. Knowledge is the most important thing when faced with injustice.
So My Dear Friend I have given you the Short Version :laughing:
I really think Jeepcj7 needs a big Cuddle cause he is getting Jealous :laughing:

Seriously to all of you, I know it seems painful and its a awefull lot of reading, but the lessons learned will save Many People Many thousands of dollars in the future, as well as My sincere wish is that we get better and safer Products that are backed up as they should be, those doing the wrong things by Customers, are brought into the light and those doing bad things end up without customers. Your Safety is important to me and that of your Families.

 

[Fergie4608]

At least you didn't say get a room, I am sorry this has dragged on so long and is a war and peace novel but sometimes it takes allot of persuasion to get action from Giants, Thanks jeepcj7