Moving to the Farm

[Tororider]

Toro the Hardies that I referenced say up to 100 feet from house but they wouldn't be Hard to move to new house later on. Was thinking the lifespan was over 20 years on these units. Not much to wear out just remember to flip the grates once a year.

Any idea how deep the pipe needs to be? To be honest I haven't had much time to look into them. I assume the pipe has to be below frost line which here is 42". Unless it is filled with some sort of anti freeze and could be buried shallower.

 

[farmer2009]

Any idea how deep the pipe needs to be? To be honest I haven't had much time to look into them. I assume the pipe has to be below frost line which here is 42". Unless it is filled with some sort of anti freeze and could be buried shallower.

When we put in dads we put it abou 24" but frost line here is about 18". So yea you need to be deeper than frost. He uses water in his it has 2 tanks one for heating which he uses pond water in (has to add a couple of gallons every year at startup) then the dhw.
As far as other glycols are concerned I would think you could use them but I would talk to a rep.

 

[westcliffe01]

The underground lines are special supply/return with about 2" of waterproof PU insulation so that you do not try heating the outdoors... The circulation pump would run pretty much all the time in winter anyway when there would be frost, so the only freeze risk would be if you had a power outage. There is one of the main issues. Why install a heat system that forces you to run a generator (continuously) in a power outage ? Running a genny is a very expensive business and if it goes on for any length of time you will find that changing oil every 20 hours is not only a pain but very expensive too.. Unless you go with a water cooled low speed diesel genset (another $6k ?)...

Before even considering the outdoor boiler, check if your county has an ordinance prohibiting them. It is very common to have them prohibited in MI and if allowed, you may find the restrictions to be a huge hassle. They are very expensive compared to a regular wood stove and people I know who use them seem to use 3x the amount of wood if not more. (12+ full cord per winter)

Any idea how deep the pipe needs to be? To be honest I haven't had much time to look into them. I assume the pipe has to be below frost line which here is 42". Unless it is filled with some sort of anti freeze and could be buried shallower.

 

[Tororider]

The underground lines are special supply/return with about 2" of waterproof PU insulation so that you do not try heating the outdoors... The circulation pump would run pretty much all the time in winter anyway when there would be frost, so the only freeze risk would be if you had a power outage. There is one of the main issues. Why install a heat system that forces you to run a generator (continuously) in a power outage ? Running a genny is a very expensive business and if it goes on for any length of time you will find that changing oil every 20 hours is not only a pain but very expensive too.. Unless you go with a water cooled low speed diesel genset (another $6k ?)... Before even considering the outdoor boiler, check if your county has an ordinance prohibiting them. It is very common to have them prohibited in MI and if allowed, you may find the restrictions to be a huge hassle. They are very expensive compared to a regular wood stove and people I know who use them seem to use 3x the amount of wood if not more. (12+ full cord per winter)

Thanks. That is very helpful.

 

[farmer2009]

You can use the special lines or just use a pex line and slide on a high quality foam insulation. What we used had taped seams that you peal the paper off of. You need 2 hot and 2 cold line but only have to insulate 3 of them the supply side dhw can be left uninsulated. As it would be anyways. The pump shouldn't run all the time if it does you need to consider insulation in the house as you are loosing a lot of heat inside.
There is the power issue but you will still have dhw. But then again you aren't packing wood through your house (dirt, bark, bugs). Also the insurance companies don't care about the outdoor units as they are not connected to the structure. They don't see them as an added fire risk that they need to increase your premium for.
As for wood usage you must take into account the dhw. You can run a dishwasher and shower at the same time no more managing water use as long as the pressure is there. Water heater runs very little as the water leaves the boiler at 180 and must cool to 120 before you normal water heater kicks in. A good tank blanket helps even more.
One tip the supplier told us was to face the door to the prevailing winter winds keeps the smoke in the stove when you go to fill it if it is smoking then.

 

[westcliffe01]

I would never even consider putting heat conducting lines (if I was not going to run the proprietary ones) directly in the ground. I would rather get a 6" (or larger if needed) plumbing line that would be completely waterproof 100% guaranteed, then run the insulated lines through that. If there is even the remotest possibility that water can get into the insulation, it will. Water always wins... And there is no better way to say goodbye to your heat than by heating groundwater. This part of MI the frost can penetrate 3-4ft which means it is close to 32F which is not what we call heat...Heat SINK, yes !

 

[dave1949]

I would use a pipe to run the heat lines through also. If for no other reason than making it easy to replace a line if needed.

There are certainly a lot variations to choose from in wood boilers. Some are much more efficient than others, but cost more to purchase. I think that is one of those "pay now or pay later" situations. Put a lot of wood through a lower cost boiler, or smaller amounts through more expensive boiler.

Another consideration is you will want AC in your location. A boiler won't help with that. You could chose a system that heats and cools such as the mini-split units.

Okay, here is my solar energy speech:

No matter what heat source you use, the first consideration is to reduce the amount of energy required. SE Michigan is not the best location for solar energy but you can get a worthwhile amount from the sun for free by building for passive solar gain (glass) and storage using thermal mass (concrete).

This map shows that you and I are in the same rating zone for solar insolation (amount of sunshine ).
http://www.nrel.gov/gis/images/eere_pv/national_photovoltaic_2012-01.jpg

It may be hard to believe, but the propane boiler for our radiant heat system is still waiting for me to fix it, our forecast for the next four days is highs 10-15, lows -14 to +5, and I am not in the least worried. We will be just fine burning a little wood in the living area masonry stove and using a 120V electric space heater in the bedroom overnight.

The radiant floor heat is in the category of "nice to have" for our passive solar house. Our house will not get colder than 45*-50* even if we add no heat other than sunshine, and that would only happen in a long stretch of cold and cloudy weather.

If you take advantage of the free heat from the sun, your regular heating system goes from being your primary heat source to your secondary source. You will burn a lot less of any fuel, and reduce the needed capacity and cost of the unit burning it.

You can also use solar electric panels in a grid-tied installation to help power mini-split Heat/AC units. They use the most power for AC in summer when you have the most abundant sunshine.

The cost today, and for the rest of your life, of a Btu or watt of solar energy is zero.

 

[Tororider]

I would use a pipe to run the heat lines through also. If for no other reason than making it easy to replace a line if needed. There are certainly a lot variations to choose from in wood boilers. Some are much more efficient than others, but cost more to purchase. I think that is one of those "pay now or pay later" situations. Put a lot of wood through a lower cost boiler, or smaller amounts through more expensive boiler. Another consideration is you will want AC in your location. A boiler won't help with that. You could chose a system that heats and cools such as the mini-split units. Okay, here is my solar energy speech: No matter what heat source you use, the first consideration is to reduce the amount of energy required. SE Michigan is not the best location for solar energy but you can get a worthwhile amount from the sun for free by building for passive solar gain (glass) and storage using thermal mass (concrete). This map shows that you and I are in the same rating zone for solar insolation (amount of sunshine ). http://www.nrel.gov/gis/images/eere_pv/national_photovoltaic_2012-01.jpg It may be hard to believe, but the propane boiler for our radiant heat system is still waiting for me to fix it, our forecast for the next four days is highs 10-15, lows -14 to +5, and I am not in the least worried. We will be just fine burning a little wood in the living area masonry stove and using a 120V electric space heater in the bedroom overnight. The radiant floor heat is in the category of "nice to have" for our passive solar house. Our house will not get colder than 45*-50* even if we add no heat other than sunshine, and that would only happen in a long stretch of cold and cloudy weather. If you take advantage of the free heat from the sun, your regular heating system goes from being your primary heat source to your secondary source. You will burn a lot less of any fuel, and reduce the needed capacity and cost of the unit burning it. You can also use solar electric panels in a grid-tied installation to help power mini-split Heat/AC units. They use the most power for AC in summer when you have the most abundant sunshine. The cost today, and for the rest of your life, of a Btu or watt of solar energy is zero.

I agree with you on passive solar. When we build the house will be built with that in mind. At this point there isn't a lot to do about it. We do have an air conditioner, so cooling is covered. At this point, I think I will be using the fireplace that is there, or getting a stand alone wood stove with outside fresh air kit and push the decision on an outside boiler on down the road. The other thing I like about the wood stove is the ability to cook on it if wanted or necessary.

I would love to put in some sort of solar system, but that too will have to wait. The pole barn runs lengthwise east to west so we have a large part of the room that is south facing and could be used for a grid tied system.

Also, my brother in law picked up our sheep today.

 

[dave1949]

I agree with you on passive solar. When we build the house will be built with that in mind. At this point there isn't a lot to do about it. We do have an air conditioner, so cooling is covered. At this point, I think I will be using the fireplace that is there, or getting a stand alone wood stove with outside fresh air kit and push the decision on an outside boiler on down the road. The other thing I like about the wood stove is the ability to cook on it if wanted or necessary.

I would love to put in some sort of solar system, but that too will have to wait. The pole barn runs lengthwise east to west so we have a large part of the room that is south facing and could be used for a grid tied system.

Also, my brother in law picked up our sheep today.

Nice looking animals. Do you raise them for fiber?

Yep, the passive solar speech was aimed at your future plans. It takes time to research all the energy options and choose the ones that work for you.

 

[Tororider]

Nice looking animals. Do you raise them for fiber? Yep, the passive solar speech was aimed at your future plans. It takes time to research all the energy options and choose the ones that work for you.

They will be raised for both fiber and meat. Both ewes are bred so next spring I should have 6 sheep +-