new grapple installation problem

[Northland]

I recently purchased a grapple from Andy Tatro and a WR Long electric valve kit from Carver Equipment. I used the thread below for help with installing the grapple and cut the spaces into the lip of my bucket so the grapple arms can extend down further. I also notched a piece out of the grapple arm, as Mad Ref did, to help in getting the grapple extended - see link

http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/customization/79451-tatro-wr-long-grapple-combo.html

I received the 2x6x1.125 cylinder (didn't see Mad Ref's suggestion about the 8" tube being better until after I bought the grapple/cylinder combo) that Andy Tatro had shipped to me from Surplus Center.

My problem is that there is a 11" gap between my toothbar and the grapple-see attached pictures.

Obviously this won't do so, as I see it, my options are as follows:

1-replace the 6" cylinder with a 12"+? cylinder
2-cut further pieces out of the bucket lip so I can get the grapple base plate flush up to the inside edge of the bucket lip. This would require the drilling of new holes into the bucket. If I do this the grapple base plate would move forward 3/4" to the inside lip of the bucket and give further reach.

Any advice would be much appreciated as I don't want to make any further mistakes

 

[shaley]

Humm, Interesting problem.
Don't cut the bucket any further, the top ridge gets its strength from the formed edge you are cutting.
The grapple is not made to mount on that type/angle of surface.
Consider this:
See the angle iron welded to the bucket on the ends. You will need to fab somethng like that for the grapple base.
Extend the cylinder all the way and hold the grapple front in touch w/the bucket cutting edge and this will be the geomety the base must be mounted at in order for it to function.

 

[KAB]

Here are a few ideas.

Disconnect the existing cylinder, with the grapple in the closed position, measure center to center cylinder mount. This will give you extended lenght needed. (You probably already figured this out.) Next open the grapple up and measure the distance of the retracted lenght of the grapple to make sure that the opening will be a useable opening and that it does not open beyond center. (not a problem if you are careful.)

I would personally try either of the following:
Try to create a different mounting point to change the angles associated with the grapple. How do the angles look if you set the grapple an angle simular to the mounting of the hooks?

Do you have access to a welder? A change in the cylinder mounting at the bucket might be all you need. (Could be checked by creating a templete and changing the angle of the bucket end mount and start measuring distances.)

I am in the middle of creating my own grapple and I found that a small change in 1 angle creates a lot of difference elsewhere. I was trying to be able to use 1 cylinder for 2 different applications and found that a slight angle change and small distance change could add up to inches elsewhere. (I won't be posting about my grapple until it is completed, sorry.)

Kurt

 

[frenchie4x4]

northland I agree with shaley. Take the grapple off and start over weld a heavy piece of angle across the top lip just like where the chain hooks are and mount the grapple there. also as Shaley stated do not cut the bucket lip it will weaken it. Good luck Frenchie.

 

[Northland]

Guys-thanks for the suggestions. I did figure out, as KAB suggested, that I needed to measure the extended and retracted lengths from pin to pin on the cylinder. Unfortunately, Surplus Center and the actual Chief cylinder web site suggest that the cylinder I have has a retracted length of 16 1/4" when it is actually 18 1/4"!

I am going to do some more figuring and experimentation today but no cutting or drilling. I relearned another good lesson-always lay everything out before you start actually installing anything. I don't understand how at 47 years old I keep doing stupid things

 

[Farwell]

Northland,
Wait a few years, the stupid things get worse as you get older, you start forgetting all the things you learned from making mistakes the first time.

 

[Northland]

Looks like you guys were right about adding a strip of angle iron to the top of the bucket.

Today I placed a 1/2" piece of wood under the grapple base mounting plate to give it some additional height but it didn't help the geometry enough as the base was still behind the bucket lip. So, I still had a 11" gap between the grapple and bucket's bottom lip.

I don't have a welder but I am sure I can find someone to weld some the angle iron onto the top lip of the bucket. I figure a piece twice as deep as the angle iron holding my bucket hooks on should do the job nicely.

 

[KAB]

To help with measuring I used my rear toplink. Marked lines on it and moved the mounting points around until I find the distances that I was looking for. A piece of 1/4 or thicker plywood would help you figure if the cylinder mounting positions are ideal for you setup.

Here are a few of the threads that I reviewed carefully before starting my grapple:
From Pineridge - Read the whole thread... Alot of information
http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/customization/48738-question-about-grapple.html
From Ryan03 - Work in progress... You will get the idea of the templetes
http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/customization/96910-low-buck-grapple-build.html?
from 3rrl - Look closely at the pics. It should help you envision what the angles should look like.
http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/customization/84907-tatro-grapples-wr-long-valves.html

Also do a search on ebay for grapples and you will find different cylinder mounting positions.

My CK20HST seems to have a smaller bucket opening than most people are adding grapples onto. I was hoping that 18 - 26.5" top cylinder would fit my bucket. Way to large. Some of my first testing showed that I could have a cylinder with a 3" stroke. By changing mounting position height and angles I probably could have went with a 6" stroke but that would have caused a retracted lenght to be to long for another project that I want a hydraulic cylinder for. With some changes either in mounting position (whole grapple, cylinder mounting or both) you will probably be able to use the cylinder that you have.

Kurt

 

[Timber]

You might want to send Rob (3rrl) a PM on this. He is very good with this stuff. I don't think he will be around over the weekend though but you never know

 

[Northland]

Thanks Kurt-that's a good idea to use the top-link as a guide.

Muscling the grapple, it's base and the cylinder into place and trying to figure out how minute changes in the position of the grapple base plate will effect the position and closure of the cylinder is no easy chore...at least for me.

I beleive you are right in your suggestion that my 6" stroke cylinder will do the job after I have welded a piece of angle iron along the top lip of my bucket and mount the grapple base to that.

thanks also for the links- I have read through many of the links on grapples and noted how they are attchaed in various installations.

 

[Northland]

You might want to send Rob (3rrl) a PM on this. He is very good with this stuff. I don't think he will be around over the weekend though but you never know

Timber-thanks for that suggestion. I have read his thread on his grapple/WR Long combo install. I will PM him.

 

[3RRL]

Northland,
Just saw your thread tonight. If you read my grapple install thread, you saw where I added a square tube to the top of my bucket. Then mounted the grapple base to that.
Shaley is on the right track, IMO.

First, extend the grapple cylinder all the way out and place the grapple assembly so that the tips of the jaws are where you want them. That might be at your bucket teeth or at the bucket lip. Either way, when you get the jaw tips where you want them, you will see what the base needs to look like. If the base sits too far behind the top of the bucket, shim it up with a 2 x 4 or a 1 x 4 until the base of the grapple is above the top of the bucket lip. Note the angle of the base too. That is what your "shim" needs to look like. Make one out of plate steel or tubing and weld it to the top lip of your bucket. Then drill and tap it to mount your grapple base on. With the "shim" the right shape, it should work perfectly with the 6" cylinder.

If the grapple base is too far forward of the top bucket lip, move it back and do the same thing. But I don't think that will be the case. Either way, moving it (the grapple base) up from the top lip and tilting the grapple base will let you put the jaw tips where you want them. You just need to make the shim the correct shape. The correct shape is what the gap between the bucket top lip and the grapple base looks like.

In my case I used a 2-1/2 x 2-1/2 steel tube and it came out pretty good. If I had it to do over again, I would have shimmed up the back of the tube more than the front, that would have been perfect for me. It would have pushed the jaw tips out more towards the bucket lip. But I like it like this anyway and it works fine. You can see one advantage is that it closes pretty deep into my bucket and really holds loose stuff tight.

Anyway, here are 4 pictures of how it turned out, closed and open.

 

[Northland]

Northland,
In my case I used a 2-1/2 x 2-1/2 steel tube and it came out pretty good.

3RRL-thanks for the suggestions and the pictures-those also help a lot.

I did as suggested and experimented last night. It seems that a 31" long piece of angle iron (like the pieces tat hold my bucket hooks in place) that is 3" wide as well as 3" deep (3/8" or 10 mm thick) welded in place along the top lip of my bucket would brace the grapple plate very well. The grapple mounting base plate it self is 3" deep so it will fit very evenly on the angle iron. Also, since the angle iron is 31" long the grapple mounting base plate's 24" should get more evenly distributed over the lenght of angle iron.

Once I had that base plate welded in I can drill holes in it and mount my grapple plate.

With this set-up my grapple teeth would recah right down to the lip of my bucket allowing me to pick up and hold fairly small pieces of wood/rock etc.,

I am not sure why using a tube as a mounting platform would be better then the angle iron?

many thanks

 

[3RRL]

A tube mount is not necessarily better...
In your case, as I understand it, you don't need to elevate the grapple upwards. It seems the angle iron gives you the correct platform to mount the grapple on and that's most important. In my case, I wanted the elevation up from the bucket to make the grapple go inside it, instead of hitting the bottom or the lip. I needed to raise it up off the bucket lip in order for that to happen. Glad the new location works out for you. Now we need some pictures of it open and closed.

 

[Northland]

A tube mount is not necessarily better...

Thanks 3RRL- now I understand why you and others used the tube mount. Luckily a guy who lives one mile down the road from me has a welder so I am going to drive the tractor down there in the next few days and have the angle iron mount welded on.

I will post pictures as soon as I have this baby operational!

Many thanks for all the help...it sure is comforting knowing that the TBN guys are out there ready to help with projects like this.

 

[Northland]

update-I had the piece of 3x3"x31" angle iron welded to my bucket and installed the grapple/electric valve kit.
Everything worked OK (I picked up a few very large maple trees and some large pieces of slate) until I noticed a slight oil leak from one of the quick disconnect hoses. I have to replace the coupling going into the cylinder. It was either defective or it got damaged when the hoses stretched a bit when I curled the bucket all the way forwards.
The sales manager at Carver Equipment recommended not buying the QD plate that WR LONG sells as an option. He suggested that most people use industrial twist ties. That was bad advice as we installed the QD hoses with twist ties and the hoses had way too much movement and rub their couples along the loader tube. Now I have to either order that QD plate from Carver/Long or have something fabricated locally. That and I have to have the hose coupling fixed.
Regardless, the grapple/valve kit works beautifully and was a very worthwhile purchase
I will post pictures as soon as I have the hose repaired and have the new addition painted orange

 

[Northland]

I have attached some pictures of my Tatro grapple with the WR Long electric valve kit and QD hoses on my tractor.

I went to a hydraulic shop on Saturday morning and they suggested the WR Long QD hoses with single-lip fittings were not good enough for the application. They said that I needed to have double-lipped endings on the cylinder end connects. Since one was already broken I had both hoses' fittings replaced with the better double lipped ends-see attached picture.

I also had to find a way to hold the hose couplings in place at the QD hoses meeting point. So, I used a plastic clamp from my bicycle u-lock. I tied it on to the loader tube using plastic tie wraps but it's not a good permanent solution. Also, without a metal coupling bulk head that sits higher off the loader tube I believe the QD hoses won't be long if I curled my bucket al the way forward-see attached pic048.

It's all good-almost!

 

[3RRL]

Everything looks great. You did a nice job getting it all plumbed and installed. You'll have a lot of fun now grappling those pesky logs and shrubs that were a pain in the --- before.
Thanks for the pictures.

 

[Northland]

Just an update on this project. I love my grapple and I am very happy I spent the $ and did the work. My log, rock and anything else moving is so much easier with my grapple-see pictures from logging work.

BTW, I also love my carry-all

 

[DonT-B7500]

Not sure if you ever got your QCs mounted correctly but here's what I did, I used the existing hold down for the hard lines across the torque tube