new to this forum kioti ck30 will not start

[ritcheyvs]

My DK40 has a main fuse located between the battery and the ignition switch. Mine was covered in black electricians tape wrapped around the cable and it looked like a mickey mouse repair but is a fuse-able link put there from the factory. When nothing lit up including the glow plug, I unwrapped it and found it blown. I think it is 60a.
After replacement it worked fine.

I re-wrapped it with red elec tape so it stands out.

Good Luck.

BW

Good info, but he reported (in post 4) that the emergency flashers do work; and that rules out the 60 amp fuse. He could still have a battery or cable problem because the flashers require so little current (compared to the glow plugs or starter), but he denies those possible causes. Something made the previously-running engine fail to restart start shortly after a normal shut down last year. I doubt that no-start was caused by fuel depletion. How could he know there was no fuel? Many owners report plenty of remaining fuel well after the gauge reads empty (my tank is still half full when the gauge reads E). Then something else killed some of the electrics (including the instruments but not the flasher) this spring. Probably two separate problems, which further confuses the situation. Until the OP reports back with new information we are probably spinning our wheels trying to help him.

 

[bullshipper99]

I did not read all the posts, sorry.

My DK40 has been having starting issues for years. I hurt my back 5 years ago and the tractor has been great, but sometimes it would not crank. everything else works, but no crank. All relays etc click and unclick and glow plugs work, but no joy. sometimes it will make a strain noise once or twice, then start. I remember jumping the solenoid to start it before. Problem will go away and then come back months later. in between starts normal.

Today it won't crank, battery good, but jumping the leads at the starter won't work, the starter does not crank the engine, it just spins without engaging the flywheel.

 

[VictorW]

If the starter is spinning but the starter gear isn't engaging the flywheel then maybe two things. The bendix, this pushes the gear out to engage the flywheel and then retracts the gear when power to the starter is off, is gone or the end of the starter shaft, that this gear slides back and forth on, is rusted or corroded. Remove the starter, check the shaft, clean if needed and apply some grease and you can also test if the bendix is working by putting the starter on the ground, holding it down with your foot because it will roll when power is applied, and hit it with 12 volts and see if the gear moves out on the shaft. I haven't had my starter out to see it's exact construction. I'm used to those on road vehicles but their operation is the same.

 

[bullshipper99]

Will do.

Thanks!

Gonna troubleshoot the cables, switch, etc.. and all those other points of failure as well to address the intermittent cranking....as soon as I find some jumper cables.

BW

 

[ritcheyvs]

If the starter is spinning but not engaging the flywheel, there is an internal problem within the starter (as Vic mentioned) OR the starter is misaligned such that the gear teeth don't mesh (unlikely) OR the gear teeth are gone. Sometimes a couple missing teeth on the flywheel will create a "dead spot."

 

[bullshipper99]

Thanks!
I have never ground the starter or abused the machine. So no dead spot(s) or missing teeth. Only the failure to crank for at least 4 years off and on and once no power at all 2 years ago when the main fuse blew.
I would check cables, ground, loosen and tighten, and then it would crank. Sometimes I just kept trying and it would crank.
Yesterday it was acting up again and I held the key and turned the electric PTO on and off and you could hear the noise change frequency. Then I kept trying the key and it cranked just like normal. More like corrosion on the battery terminals than a dead battery, when it finally cranked it cranked good and normal. I think whatever was intermittent before has failed completely. I bet it is cables or ground or ignition switch. I know the terminals are clean and tight and the battery checked OK. I am trying to start by shorting the terminals on the starter solenoid with a screwdriver and getting the starter to spin but no engaging flywheel.

BTW- The intermittent issue for years is weird in that sometimes it will whine like an old ford or chevy with a bad solenoid or a car with corrosion on the battery terminals that you could clean and fix the issue. Other times the only sound you hear are the fuel solenoid and the glow plugs clicking on, and then no sound or anything at all when you make the final turn to start. Sometimes it whines and sometimes nothing.

And most of the time it works fine. It has done this no cranking in cold and hot weather, and it has done it first start of the day, and on a hot re-start.

So the only thing I can see that is consistent about the problem is the dang old in-consistency!!!!

Thanks again!

BW

 

[bullshipper99]

Tractor is used year round to bush hogg, drill post holes, till garden, raking gravel on driveways, moving and feeding round bales to cattle and moving snow with box blade and FEL.

I had a clutch replaced twice under warranty. The tractor was kept outside. While moving hay saw stains on the road and discovered fluid was leaking out transmission. A seal failed and the clutch had been bathed in oil and was replaced. First time dealer took forever and the clutch went out again 6 months later, stuck to the flywheel. No fluid leaking this time.
I took it to a different dealer who said when he took the tractor apart the clutch was so rusty they could not figure out why. Initial claim denied under warranty. I explained the first repair situation and they paid for entire fix and requested I store inside or under cover. They also removed the clutch water drain plug and put a bent cotter pin in to allow water to drain and keep insects out.

I wonder if the starter/flywheel has been rusty and getting worse over time?

Did not mean to leave that out, I just remembered it happened.

It is a 2003 and that seal - clutch went out the second year I had it.

 

[ritcheyvs]

The starter pinion lives in the same environment as the flywheel and clutch. So it could easily have become rusted too. If so, Vic's suggestion may do the trick.

 

[bullshipper99]

OK, Good News and Good News??

In the above posts I was shorting the main wires of the starter instead of the red lead spade terminal and the positive side in of the starter.

The tractor runs and starts fine when I use the switch for glow plugs and jump across the red lead and the starter + in.

The switch puts out 12.7 from the center wire when the switch is in the start position.

So do I locate and troubleshoot whatever the switch(s) are that prevent the start without depressing the clutch and or PTO switch or whatever else F*^$s up the start sequence and keeps the Lawyers happy and employed........?


OR


Do I install a push button between the red lead and the + in on the starter and use the key and then press the button when the glow plug light goes on like a normal start and just never use the Start position on the key switch??

Any help, reference links to drawings or other input appreciated.

Thanks!

BW

 

[ritcheyvs]

Bullshipper: That makes sense. The small starter terminal energizes the starter solenoid which (1) connects the 12v (from the big starter terminal) to the motor windings (via the other big terminsl) and (2) operates a lever that pushes the pinion gear to engage the flywheel. But, if you only apply power to that other big (winding) terminal the motor will spin but the pinion gear will not engage because this setup also energizes a second solenoid winding that pulls the pinion AWAY from the flywheel. If both solenoid windings are energized (e.g. normal start), the pinion engages the flywheel until power is removed from the small terminal (e.g. when key is released from the crank position). Then, that second winding (and a spring) pulls the pinion away to disengage from the flywheel. So it sounds like the starter is operating normally.

There is a start relay (on that "firewall" in front of the fuel tank) that switches power to the starter motor. Others here report that these are common plug-in relays available at any auto parts store. Your "no crank" problem is either that relay or the actual key switch. Your voltage measurement seems to indicate a good key switch although I'm not certain which wire you mean by "center wire".

My recommendation would be to try replacing that start relay. I don't have a CK, but I have a diagram that shows the start relay is in the outboard, extreme right (as viewed from the driver's seat) position. There may be another identical type relay on that firewall (for some other purpose) that you could temporarily swap to see if that fixes your no-crank. I'm not certain that your specific model has an identical relay.

The other thing to check is the clutch safety switch which prevents starting the engine unless the clutch is fully depressed/disengaged. I assume you have a 2003 gear model?

 

[bullshipper99]

Thanks!

Shuttle-shift gear model

I purchased 10/2003

Serial # 3615-00015

Thanks for the help.

I can find that relay with your excellent directions, but I do not know where the clutch safety switch is located.
Machine was parked in bad location to crawl under but now I can crank it and move it to a better location.

BW

 

[ritcheyvs]

Follow the arm from the clutch pedal up to the pivot. You should see that limit switch touching the clutch arm. Think in terms of looking up under the dash vs under the tractor. You probably want a flashlight.

It's a simple limit switch that breaks the electrical connection from the key switch to the start relay until the clutch pedal is almost fully depressed. These switches can fail but they can also get out of adjustment. I think you can pull the connector from the switch and use a simple jumper at the connector to bypass the switch as a test.

Also, vased on the first digit of your S/N, you indeed have a 2003 model. The purchase date can be well after the build date, which matters little because tractors don't change every year like US cars. The full S/N is important for ordering parts because design changes can happen at any time (often in the middle of a build year).

 

[bullshipper99]

On my way.

Found relay, clicks loudly when key turns to start.
Removed and tested with A/C relay from ford truck. Still just clicks.
Will check switch now.

Thanks!

BW

 

[bullshipper99]

Did not have any effect when I removed the leads and jumped across them.

If the relay on the firewall clicks when the key is turned to start, does that mean the clutch safety switch is not the issue?

Thanks!

BW

 

[ritcheyvs]

If the relay on the firewall clicks when the key is turned to start, does that mean the clutch safety switch is not the issue?
BW

Yes, but...

The clutch safety switch is between the key switch and the relay. So the relay should not function unless the clutch switch is closed. But there are other relays (like the glow relay) that also click on when you turn the switch (to on, but not to start). If there is more than one of the same type relay on the firewall the assembler could have switched connectors between relays. All would still work fine except the start relay would not be where you expect to find it. So I'm wondering if we've misidentified the start relay. If you have a helper, you can try turning the key to the crank position with and without the clutch fully depressed. The real start relay should click with the clutch pedal full down when you turn the key to crank but not with the clutch pedal up. The start relay should not click when the key is just turned to on or pre-glow (but the glow relay will).

Another member here reported that the connectors were switched between the start and glow relays (which were the same type). His start relay (which should have been the glow relay) was bad but the relay he thought was the start relay (and was actually functioning as the glow relay) always tested good. It was just luck they he found the real problem.

 

[bullshipper99]

To identify I had the clutch depressed with the hold down clip and the tractor in neutral, and i stood on the drivers side of the tractor and touched the relays while turning the key to start. I felt the relay click and tried it several times. I then removed the single nut and tried another relay from the truck. It clicked as well. It was the relay closest to the drivers side.
I did not do anything to the other relay.

I think that was the best way to identify the correct one, but maybe not. I will get a helper to hold that relay while i depress the clutch and try to turn the key to feel if it is the correct one.

I suppose the relay can still click and be no good and using one from a truck was hardly the best way either.

The relay only has a hint of a paper label on it with no way to identify it, and unlike an automotive one it had a screw bracket to bolt it to the firewall.

Do you have any idea what the correct replacment from a local NAPA would be?

Thanks!

BW

 

[ritcheyvs]

I don't have a NAPA number.

The relay can certainly click and still be bad (e.g. burned contacts). I guess I was putting a lot of faith in the relay you substituted and claims by others that this is a common automotive relay. There is another possibility and that's a bad wire or connection, either feeding the relay or between the relay and the starter.

Do you have a voltmeter/multimeter and and experience usinga schematic? I don't have the exact schematic for your model but I have similar ones. If I were doing this and had a meter, I'd first test the voltage at the small starter terminal, which should jump to 12 volts when you turn the key to start with the clutch pressed. If that tests good we have been looking in the wrong place so far. Assuming that tests bad (like near zero volts at the starter) I'd test the contact connections (not the coil connections) at the unplugged relay connector. One should read about 12 volts and the other should be zero. Jumpering across these two should crank the engine regardless of the key switch or clutch switch. Don't try this unless you are sure you know which are the connections for the contacts . If not, it's either the wrong connector or there is a wire problem. You can ensure it's the right connector by checking continuity between the small starter terminal and the start relay contact on the connector that was zero volts.

The push-button you proposed (from 12v to the small starter terminal) will work for a while. The problem is the sparking (which you no doubt observed) and fairly high current that will eventually burn out a push-button switch unless it's designed to handle that current and arcing.

Fixing wireing problems is very messy so it's best to test everything else first and do enough testing that you know exactly which wire is bad. Often it's better to just run a new bypass wire than to tear into a factory cable bundle unless you have multiple failures (sometimes caused by rodents.

 

[bullshipper99]

Thanks!

I been using a meter to get this far. Couldn't find one in the barn so i got one from my son. Used it to prove there was nothing at the small terminal at the starter and the back of the key switch was 12.7v by having my wife turn the key for me.

I am done for today ready to quit for the evening.
Tomorrow I will check the relay like you suggested.

Thanks for all the help!

BW

 

[ritcheyvs]

BW: See private message.

 

[bullshipper99]

ritcheyvs: She started up normal this am, the started acting up. See private message.