new tractor idea possibly....

[boggen]

Well, I officially give you the TBN award for most out-of-box (er tractor cab) thinking AND most posts to one thread in minimum amount of time. :drink::tractor:

You've certainly been struck by an innovative idea and are working thru the ramifications of the idea and just can't stop until you get it all worked out.

I admire your tenacity and innovations....hope they come to some sort of fruition for you and you see your new kind of tractor going thru the amber waves of grain!:cloud9:

excellent reply! WOW, thanks!

 

[boggen]

so main frame bottom. is for most part solid along with...
--how implements fold/unfold
--going between transport mode to field mode and back again
--along with weight distribution.
--if only 1 implement is loaded on 20feet side. wheels can (slide over) some, to offset the weight to help "balance" the load, when in transport mode.

================

the short end implements....
--mini section that has a cab...
--mini section that is a cab, and no other implements that unfold from it.
--20 feet section, were cab sets on top middle. and engines a engine on both side.
----to make room for cab, some engines and like are removed from the center of the section.

--bump pull hitch/tongue
--pintail / fifth wheel hitch
--semi trailer type of hitch
--limited degree hinge (flex joint) between 2 sections of machine

--limited degree hinge (flex joint) between 2 sections of machine, that also folds out
---- so you could have say 60 foot long (main transport drive tractor), then another 60 feet trailer machine behind that pulls like a 2 axle grain wagon.

--if implement requires more HP than STB can provide at pulling 20 feet width, you could go with say 8 to what ever you can legally get by going down the road with.
----perhaps running 2 sections and short width bottom plow.
----other words STB would turn into kinda of current age tractor and short width bottom plow setup

--hitch that would accept current age implements that get get up into the cat 3 and cat 4 sizes...
----no one ever said the short end of this machine, could not have an implement that "unfolded" like current age implements

--smaller width implement than what would fit on 20 feet side. so...
----((assuming same type of implement is on all 3 sides of STB))
----driving down field in 20 to 40 to 100 plus width
----reach end of field, lift the multi implements along the width of STB
----fold the short end implement down
----turn wheels 90 degree
----scoot machine down edge of field so many feet.
----lift short end implement
----place long width implements down.

--powered caster wheels for short end implement
----to turn this STB into a monster "ZERO TURN"
----your normal various implements that might be combined with above caster wheels and a single 20 feet x 8 feet section, to turn it into kinda a large size current age tractor then toss (plows, chisels, discs, seeders, air seeders, choppers, rotatory cutters "bush hogs", finishing mowers, rear blades, box blades, etc...) on other end of the 20 x 8 feet section.

--FEL (front end loader) could be possible on short end. the TNT (Top aNd Tilt) like links. should be enough there to lower/raise arms, and would just need second set for bucket cylinders...ARGHS!!

================

perhaps i should go with 2 top links on the short ends... there is room for them...

been tempted to place a "12v DC winch" per 20feet wide sides. perhaps on short ends as well. to help fold implements up. but to act as a backup, to keep implements folded up while going down the road...perhaps used to help drag each implement over to the STB. when trying to attach implements... maybe this would be optional package. that just bolts on to the frame up on top were engines and like are.

 

[boggen]

View attachment 280207
adjustments to short end top links to have 2 on each end.

View attachment 280208
fill like a kid in a candy store, and told to get as much as you want and what ever you want....

been thinking hydraulics. and more so hydraulics ran in shops, and factories. i thought about making "loops" that go all the way around machine. this could possibly allow for "smaller diameter" piping, and help balance pressure / GPM of hyd oil through out the system.

figure the pipes could be placed one on top of one other. with some "pipe holders" holding the pipes to some stand offs. i am going to assume some implements / STB setups going to require power beyond, and various valving setups. so there would need to be a way. to easily TEE into these main hyd lines. and come off of them for the valves and like. perhaps the supports that come up from the frame. turn these supports into actual TEE's themselves. and just place a end cap into the TEE. and let customer choose what they want as far as what they want for valving and were they want the valves.

example i would assume someone might want "power beyond" type of setup. to connect 2 or more 20x8 feet sections together. and just having a single engine out of the 2 sections running everything.

some may want some sort of electronic valve (proportional valve), with a "manual override" for attaching / UN-attaching implements.

some may not need / want short end hydraulic links.

i could almost see someone might wanting a pipe that loops around an entire section, and have a hyd accumulator on that line.

i would assume what ever way the engines were pointed more specifically the variable displacement pumps were nearest to. that the hyd to the "transmission/s" would be tee'ed off and sent down. (closer the better)

=================
the entire machine would look like a triangle on wheels. if it had implements on both 20feet sides that were folded up. but how many degrees do these implements fold back into the center of the machine? "clearance"

with links being below the main frame. i would imagine 45 degree would be MAX, but what about 67.5 degree angle. i do not know about that 67.5 angle. would still most likely place most of the weight of implement in transport mode onto the links. vs allowing the implement to rest on top of the STB.

stating links are below main frame. someone may want for what ever reason. move a link or links to above the main frame. it would be nice to see say 8" maybe 10" inches all the way around the top of the frame. just to "mount" something.

==========
getting off track again...

never really thought about it but 20 x 8 would kinda look like a hay wagon.

i wonder if it would be possible to shrink the "width down" from 20 feet to what ever smaller it could be achieved. just thinking 8 tires that are 1.5 width, 2 feet diameter for 20x8. that would be a lot of ground pressure. something smaller than 20 feet...a smaller width would really help reduce the weight i would imagine.

 

[aczlan]

For power and attachment, I might look at something like the MK48
For powering the wheels, how about a HVDC or 3 phase AC bus and motors on the wheels? Add and remove generators as needed to maintain power.
Mason Dixon Farms in addition to powering their farm on bio-gas produced electricity has 3 phase AC powered implements for some of their tractors.
Here is one of their setups: Mason Dixon Farm - Page 2 - flyaway's Photos IIRC the tracked trailer is self propelled and the box comes off. They fill the box, drop it off by the entrance, grab a empty one and then a truck with a road chassis backs under the full trailer to taker it to the farm.


Aaron Z

 

[boggen]

had to see for myself if an extra side link and end links were removed. what it would give and would there be any major major! advantage

View attachment 280215

2 20 feet sections = 40 feet
2 sections created into a single section = 35
2 sections created into a single section = 33


not sure about the 33 one. with 3 sets of links. i am not sure how an implement would be "divided up" so it would "flow / roll" with the land better (over high / low spots)

7 feet is a lot! when considering how much weight 7 feet of frames, hyd cylinders, engines, hyd oil, etc.. could fill up. but when spread over 16 wheels.... perhaps more wheels if a "tire implement" gets added....

i guess i really can not do much about anything for above. the STB would need to get made into some computer 3D program. with everything down to the niddy griddy. and hopefully the program would state how heavy everything would end up being. to get ground pressure at the tires... and see if something would really need to be done for compaction or not and spreading the weight out....

 

[boggen]

For power and attachment, I might look at something like the MK48
For powering the wheels, how about a HVDC or 3 phase AC bus and motors on the wheels? Add and remove generators as needed to maintain power.
Mason Dixon Farms in addition to powering their farm on bio-gas produced electricity has 3 phase AC powered implements for some of their tractors.
Here is one of their setups: Mason Dixon Farm - Page 2 - flyaway's Photos IIRC the tracked trailer is self propelled and the box comes off. They fill the box, drop it off by the entrance, grab a empty one and then a truck with a road chassis backs under the full trailer to taker it to the farm.


Aaron Z

having everything electric, or for most part electric. would simplify good portion of things.

generators would be for sure "easy move in / out" if a gen went bad or broke down for what ever reason. get a fork lift or like in there remove gen. and replace gen for another gen that was setting off to the side that is working.

having most things electric, would reduce risk of a HUGE amount of hyd oil, all of a sudden being pumped out into middle of the field, due to something broke / cracked / ripped apart.

excellent post Aaron Z! not enough time to fully digest your entire post at this moment. need to take off to get some other things done. ya gave me something to ponder over, as i am out and about THANKS!

 

[boggen]

going to have to read up and do some googling for water proof, moisture proof, dust proof, vibration proof, connectors for electrical rated at high enough amps.... regular RV or camper / trailers, or dryer connecters just not made for being banged around. i would imagine. and more made for "stationary" objects that do not move while electricity is being sent through the connectors / plugs...

i like idea of electrical motors going down to the drive wheels over hyd oil. mainly due to possibly connections you could do. but my big concern for the one type of connection i have in mind. is when little kid when them "race tracks" for 12vdc cars. were cars were about size of 2 thumbs side by side. is the springs and the "rails" that went down to the tracks would quickly wear out. and jamb up with grim. i would imagine if i looked at full size electrical trains. were they receive power directly through the rails the wheels go on. i might find something there. but i am still a little skiddish on that idea.

i am also skiddish on hyd oil. and large 360 joint that would be needed. to drive hyd oil down to the drive wheels. tracked excavators have been around long enough that surely manufactures have them down. to keep contaminants from the outside world from getting into things...

i suppose the actual electrical motor or hydrostatic transmission would not ""need"" to set clear down below everything. i might be able to just run a drive shaft, right through the center of the 360 joint. and then have gear box down below. to do all the forward / reversing... but at moment i am almost wanting the extra weight down below. just to lower center of gravity of the machine. both in transport mode and in field mode.

arghs that is another thing.... is getting just a min amount of electricity down to the drive wheels to adjust valves / switches, etc... that would be needed regardless of placement of electrical motor or hydrostatic transmissions...

my other issue, is i am not up on par with the various phases of electricity. each section of the STB will at bare min have 2 engines (one near each short end). possibly up to 4 to 8 engines per section. if all the engines had generators on them. would i be driving up just the AMPS. as each engine/generator turned on and was set to different speeds... or would i be also driving up AMPS and Volts.

at moment i kinda prefer HYD cylinders. for the heavy lifting of cylinders. to fold / unfold implements and like. if a valve or cylinder leaks some hyd oil through it. i know were the implement will go (down to the ground) i am not sure if i would be willing to deal with electrical actuators over hyd cylinders. actuators might freeze up leaving an implement still in some sort of "unfold" place. though thinking about it. a good size electrical motor and right type of actuator might leave some extra space under the machine to be able to "squeeze" everything more closer to the drive wheels.

for electricity, if a wire shorted out some place. i might be kissing a ton of cash in electronics good by. the more amps / volts / watts. and something shorted out. greater chance of a "spark" happening some place on machine. and from early spring and prepping the fields for seeding later on. to harvesting, there is a lot of dry material. that can quickly and easily catch on fire.

hhmmmsss.... i could see it both ways electrical over hyd oil. i am all for generators and electrical motors. but... i am not completely seeing the big picture and small details of it just yet. then gain same with hyd oil.

==================
for time being, i think i might be best served. figuring out different implements for machine, and how they attach and work. leaving the electrical vs hyd oil or combo of them on the back burner, and read up when i get burned out on some other tasks.... figure once i have a better idea of how the STB would work over a variety of doings. i might be better able to judge what would be needed.

i am also unsure about large long drive shafts. example PTO on back of a tractor...

i am fairly sure there will be some sort of "hybrid" setup. between the 3 different ways to move and transfer power around. but unsure what may be the more dominant of the 3.

 

[aczlan]

For power plugs, I would go with Anderson Powerpole connectors (Products Brands). They are what are used for winches and other things that operate in a hostile environment.

Aaron Z

 

[boggen]

been looking at various implements out there... and trying to decided if there might be a better way to fold/un-fold implements along with on the fly adjustments to implements.

i am looking at these massive frames for 30 plus feet wide implements. but then i see these small size frames that are actually holding the disc, chisel, shank, ripper, plow, cutler, what ever it may be for tillage.

i would imagine there is a certain "distance" between various things (both side to side and how far something travels behind another thing). along with distance between things that might be a combination of MPH, soil properties, depth implement goes into the ground. overall weight on implement, how well implement stays at a certain distance off the ground how much "width" or perhaps i should say "drag" on what ever is in the ground...

random attempts to see if main frames for implements, bend, telescope, angle back and forth
random attempts to try and picture how various implements might fold/un-fold...



the last row of diagrams in above. has been what i been thinking about. but dealing with "seeders" and like that have a boxes of seeds. how do you keep from "dumping" all the see right on top of the machine as the implement folds up all the way...

============
i have also been thinking about the "main drive wheels" i can almost see this STB (side train box) tractor tipping over onto its rear end. with that thought about some sort of "hinge" or perhaps 4 hyd cylinders (6" max) that tilts the entire deck a couple inches in forward to backward directions when in field mode.

thinking this might help with weight distribution, if implement wheels were added for field mode. or perhaps simply adjusting depth of implement attached to the STB (side train box) tractor.

 

[boggen]

For power plugs, I would go with Anderson Powerpole connectors (Products Brands). They are what are used for winches and other things that operate in a hostile environment.

Aaron Z

looking through the link. and i did not see any sort of "water proof seal" or perhaps.... you put male/female plugs together. and then a clip or pin. to hold the ends together.

the "euro battery connectors" is about nearest thing that looks "heavy duty" enough on the link, to come close.

i know there needs to be some "snug" to fit between both male/female ends for electrical fittings. just to get a good connection between the male/female ends. but there needs to be some sort of mechanical connection. something like hyd oil quick disconnect fittings. that lock the ends together.

the ends need be "strong enough" that i can easily grab a hold of, and put 200lbs of weight on them. to push male/female ends together. or to pull them apart. perhaps not 200lbs. but i could see someone struggling....

some sort of "wiggling" would be nice and built into the male/female ends or more specifically the female ends. so things can be worked out. ((little bit of corrosion, dirt, what not...)) i could care less what some sort of metal not being corrosive. or what not. that makes up the connectors. it is when it does happen. or dirt or like clogs stuff up. and wanting the wiggling to help plug/unplug the connecters.

granted i would still want pins and connectors to be non corrosive, but hopefully get point of wiggle above.

thinking about it. i think some "cheap" short extensions" kinda like an extension cord. but without the cord between the male/female ends of the cord. so if male or female ends get banged up, corroded, etc... the extension could be quickly swapped out. vs having to "re-wire" a new female or new male end. just thinking try to get someone out in the field to try and get enough light, and correct tools to get a few wires redone on a plug would be a troublesome. to a point folks may prefer to replace the entire cord going all the way back to wire harness.

other words instead of replacing a full length wire harness. that connects to a plug that farmer would plug / unplug a few times a year. there would be a short distance of wire between wire harness plug, and physical plug farmer would use. so if plug farmer would used gets damaged. it could be a cheap easy doing... ((double plug)) per say.

the old 555c TLB i have, has some nice wire harnesses connections. were male/female ends push together. and then a 0-ring slides down and then a plastic nut tightens the 2 connections. but these wire harness connections. can be easily broken. and reason why i was thinking of a more robust 2nd plug. that a farmer would generally plug things in.

when i say plug things in, i am thinking implements having electrical motors. vs hyd motors... or just plain wire harnesses between implements and STB (side train box) tractor.

 

[boggen]

For power plugs, I would go with Anderson Powerpole connectors (Products Brands). They are what are used for winches and other things that operate in a hostile environment.

Aaron Z

my bad, thought i looked at all the connectors.... went backed and double checked...
"spec pack connectors" interesting!

but if there was an actual handle, kinda like the euro battery ends, were i could have some thick gloves on. and still wrap 3 fingers around. if not all 4 fingers and pull the plugs out. vs wrapping hands around a plug to try and pull apart....

just standard 110v 3 prong regular extension cords can be a down right pain to pull apart some times.

 

[boggen]

was thinking of some sort of telescoping aproach to implements. or some how get the various rows of discs, shanks, etc... to slide up next to the STB (side train box) tractor before the implement was actually folded up onto the machine. ((going back to tetter totter)) and if weight could be brought more near the fulcrum. it might be easier to flip / fold the implement up onto the machine for transport mode.

then when going to field mode and unfolding. once implement was lowered from transport mode. it would then push or slide or fold out to wanted space/distance for each rows of discs, shanks, etc...

==================
been thinking of "flat bed" tow trucks. were the rear bed tilts, and extends back behind truck. then car/truck is attached to winch. and pulled up onto the bed. then bed tilts and retracts back onto the rear of the truck... but instead of being a "wide" flat bed. perhaps some "ramps" ((multi ramps were placed were ever needed for a given implement and then locked / pinned into place)) was thinking multi ramps to reduce weight.

with above said, perhaps making sure main frame. can be used to slide stuff up and down the frame, like ramps. or easily able to clamp/pin something onto main frame of the STB (side train box) tractor.

===================

thought about some sort of "long tongue/hitch" like current age tractor implements. but folding back into a trailer mode...

example 60 feet STB with 60 feet implements. and then folding back so STB becomes kinda like current age tractor, and implement folds back to current age implement

honestly do not like this over all idea.

=====================
thought about implement being wide enough and heavy enough. were STB pulls into field with implement in tow behind it. and then STB un-hooks, and drives backward, to attach implement to the long width of the STB. i could this happening for some things possibly.... but life of me not sure what would require such a thing, if implement was "built" just for the STB.... and not some modification from some old implement modified for the STB.

=====================
i thought about forks lifts on steroids...(like 3pt hitch fork or forks that fit on a FEL) or rather a single fork connected to each set of lower links. and the STB (side train box) tractor. would attach to implements by putting the forks into ends of implement frame. then folding the forks up so implement would slide back onto the forks. then putting a pin in. so implement would not slide off of the forks.

=====================
instead of fork lifts. perhaps a "tool bar" or rather a generic frame... that could be turned into various implements, but attaching / un attaching discs, shanks, etc... in various rows across it....

=====================
i am still caught up on a "12v DC winch" or a couple of them. and possibly using them to help fold/unfold implements. but what has me is needing some sort of long pole with a hook or like. that could reach over implements and snag the cable and bring it out to edge of an implement to be attached.

=====================
another thing that is still bugging me. is the lower links, and being able attach/unattach multi implements. without having to climp,crawl, fall on your face, hit knees, tear up hands and arms as you get across an implement so you can mess around with the links to get them attached to an implement.

with 3pt hitches and the various categories of 3pt hitches.... there normally is always some sort of room to walk between current age tractor and implement. and get things aligned, to get implements hooked up to the tractor. but with the STB, there is no easy way to walk between STB and implement....or i should say multi implements and multi sections of the STB...

if lower links on the STB had 3pt hitch lower arms like a regular tractor has. were arms can move side to side some. how would this action be achieved? and be controlled from a distance? would a there need to be a 2 more baby size hyd cylinders, one for upper link and one for lower link. to move them from side to side. and then use some (remote control, kids toy air plane / remote control car) type of remote. to adjust the links?

would there be a 2 to 3 feet wide. plank around edge of STB. were a person could walk, and some how use a pry bar or something to move the links back and forth to get them algined with pin holes on the implement?

for the wide width side of the STB. would there be some rods that extend from the upper and lower links. over to a corner/s were links could be moved side to side by moving the rods?

 

[aczlan]

i am still caught up on a "12v DC winch" or a couple of them. and possibly using them to help fold/unfold implements. but what has me is needing some sort of long pole with a hook or like. that could reach over implements and snag the cable and bring it out to edge of an implement to be attached.

IMO, having the farmer get out to unfold things will not go over well. A CANBUS type connector that runs computer to talk to a valve block that runs off of closed center hydraulics might go over well, but would cost more than the current bunches of hydraulic lines running back from the tractor.

Aaron Z

 

[boggen]

how would you fold/unfold an implement up onto the top of the STB (side train box) tractor if one or both links were above the frame? vs being below the frame.

 

[aczlan]

the last row of diagrams in above. has been what i been thinking about. but dealing with "seeders" and like that have a boxes of seeds. how do you keep from "dumping" all the see right on top of the machine as the implement folds up all the way...

Look at how they do it for those monster air seeders... Small hopper with a screw on lid at each planter and a large box of seed that it fills from.

how would you fold/unfold an implement up onto the top of the STB (side train box) tractor if one or both links were above the frame? vs being below the frame.

Not seeing your pictures of a 'STB' so I couldn't say.

Aaron Z

 

[boggen]

IMO, having the farmer get out to unfold things will not go over well. A CANBUS type connector that runs computer to talk to a valve block that runs off of closed center hydraulics might go over well, but would cost more than the current bunches of hydraulic lines running back from the tractor.

Aaron Z

was not thinking about manual unfolding/fold. but rather winch as part of the physical portion of attaching/un-attaching implements... were the winch would assist in folding / unfolding. or to drag implement over to the side of the STB. if the implement is just out of reach for connections between implement and links. everything would remain "computerized" were it would be push button operation at the cab....

EDIT: attempting to fix images not loading (double attaching picture)
View attachment 280318

 

[aczlan]

was not thinking about manual unfolding/fold. but rather winch as part of the physical portion of attaching/un-attaching implements... were the winch would assist in folding / unfolding. or to drag implement over to the side of the STB. if the implement is just out of reach for connections between implement and links. everything would remain "computerized" were it would be push button operation at the cab....
View attachment 280318

Ah, makes more sense that way. Attachment still wont load for me. Gives an invalid attachment error.

Aaron Z

 

[boggen]

Look at how they do it for those monster air seeders... Small hopper with a screw on lid at each planter and a large box of seed that it fills from.

thx.

Quote Originally Posted by boggen View Post
how would you fold/unfold an implement up onto the top of the STB (side train box) tractor if one or both links were above the frame? vs being below the frame.

Not seeing your pictures of a 'STB' so I couldn't say.

Aaron Z

did not draw any pictures for that post, brain freeze. not able to even visualize it in my mind. let alone draw something.

hhmmsss this set of diagrams might work... but just not connecting dots. of how an implement could fold/unfold.

EDIT: attempt to fix images to display correctly
View attachment 280323


DUH!! now i remember were i was going with thought with cylinders on top... it was for "tire implements" and trying to think of a way to get tire implements tied more into the direct main frame of tractor!!

EDIT: attempt to fix images to display correctly
View attachment 280324


in think my brain is freezing up. due to most of the time in this thread i have been think of chisel plows, bottom plows, discs, etc... were everything is below the frame of the implement. and what would be above the frame is very minimal. but that is not always the case for other implements, like seeders.

trying to keep the busy work (first row of implements, like discs chisels, etc...) as close to edge of tractor as possible. vs having a couple extra feet between the first row were busy work begins on implement and the tractor edge... and re looking at how implements might fold/unfold if the links were moved to the top of the frame vs below the frame.

 

[boggen]

Ah, makes more sense that way. Attachment still wont load for me. Gives an invalid attachment error.

Aaron Z

refreshed paged a couple times, closed firefox and restarted and refreshed page again. and getting same problem, not even getting "thumb nails" to show up...

been using "quick reply box" with the image attachment button, and clicking over on "computer" to upload files directly. vs going through "go advance" button to type up messages... will see if i can edit through go advance to get images to show properly.

 

[boggen]

before i forget, i want to do a search on train couplers. between each box of a train. i know there are a few different types, but if some sort of smaller version could be made for links. to help automate things in attaching / unattaching implments to hyd links...