Possible Fuel Pump???

[cnorth]

I have a CK25 that will turn over but will not run. This is a list of the stuff I have checked:
-It has diesel
-I have tried to use ether but it still does not start ( I only did it twice using 3 short bursts of ether on each try)
-I have loosened one of the metal lines from the fuel pump and no fuel squirts out while starting
-When I turn the key to the glow plug warm position, I can hear/feel a clap from the solenoid on the fuel pump.
-I tried taking the solenoid off of the pump and tried to crank again; nothing


My question is two-fold: One, is there anything else you all recommend trying before I concede it is the fuel pump and take it to the dealer? Two, do you all have any recommendations/tricks to try and get Kioti to pay for a defective pump with 190 hrs. on it!?

Thanks in advance for your help. This forum is full of great info; wish I would have found it sooner!

 

[sweettractors]

Make sure the fuel filters are not clogged. Bleed the fuel system. See if you have fuel to the injection pump. A good dealer should take care of you if it is a defective pump. Ken Sweet

 

[LaVoie Equipment]

More than likely it is your injection pump. There are many threads, many complaints, questions that have referenced the same symptoms. If you are mechanically inclined and have a book to show you the removal process - Do it yourself.' It takes about an 2 hours.

Verify first your lift or transfer pump is pumping fuel to the injection pump. If it is there will be fluid pumping out the rubber line when removed from the injection pump. If not purchase and replace with a new one.

Warranty - You will have to talk to your local dealer. We are in Richmond, VA - If you're close come on by and we'll talk or call. I know what I can and cannot do.

Tony

 

[CubMon]

Hey, I can assure you that it is not ignition related!....Oh, not funny....

Do a check systematically: Make sure that the fuel supply hasn't been inadvertently shut off.... see that you have fuel coming to the delivery pump, then see that the pump is actually pumping fuel through the final filter to the injection pump. Make sure all of your line fittings are well gasketed and not loose enough to leak. Injection pumps pull fuel in little very stout jerks and will pull air in at a loose fitting and in that case the injection pump will do absolutely nothing. Most of the current injection systems will self bleed but it must have a positive pressure from the delivery pump. Do Not put a finger over an open injection line to see pressure or fuel because it is delivered in very small amounts under tremendous pressure. (You probably already know about this - just cautioning again...)You have a fuel leak.... is my guess. You can find it...

Also; prechambered diesels will very often not start using ethyl either. When you get enough into the induction filter the engine will probably pre-ignite lock - bad!

 

[cnorth]

OK- I tried all the ideas you all posted. Thank you for your time.

As best I can describe, The fuel leaves the tank and goes into a round thing with six phillips head screws on the faceplate on the side of the pump. Is this the other "lift or transfer" pump? Then it leaves and goes up to the big fuel filter. It leaves the fuel filter and goes into the injector pump. All the way to where it goes into the injector pump it will "puke" fuel in spurts when I try to start it. I assume at this point it is the injector pump, but if I did not do something right or need to do something else, let me know and I'll try it.

As for LaVoie, I was talking to a shadetree mechanic that I know who says the timing will have to be set or make sure the timing is set (so that it delivers fuel at the specified time each cylinder needs it)... is this true and what will that involve? Sounds like something that will be very important and I'm not sure I would have the tools to do it. I can follow directions (I am married, after all) but is this something an average handy person can handle?

 

[sweettractors]

OK- I tried all the ideas you all posted. Thank you for your time.

As best I can describe, The fuel leaves the tank and goes into a round thing with six phillips head screws on the faceplate on the side of the pump. Is this the other "lift or transfer" pump? Then it leaves and goes up to the big fuel filter. It leaves the fuel filter and goes into the injector pump. All the way to where it goes into the injector pump it will "puke" fuel in spurts when I try to start it. I assume at this point it is the injector pump, but if I did not do something right or need to do something else, let me know and I'll try it.

As for LaVoie, I was talking to a shadetree mechanic that I know who says the timing will have to be set or make sure the timing is set (so that it delivers fuel at the specified time each cylinder needs it)... is this true and what will that involve? Sounds like something that will be very important and I'm not sure I would have the tools to do it. I can follow directions (I am married, after all) but is this something an average handy person can handle?

If you have fuel to the injection pump and not out, sounds like a bad pump. If no one has adjusted the timing, there is no reason to think it would be out of time. Ken Sweet

 

[cnorth]

Man- you guys are fast! So just to be clear, it is a "plug and play" installation. No tuning or adjusting after I take the old one off and put the new one on?

 

[sweettractors]

Deleted

 

[CubMon]

OK- I tried all the ideas you all posted. Thank you for your time.

As best I can describe, The fuel leaves the tank and goes into a round thing with six phillips head screws on the faceplate on the side of the pump. Is this the other "lift or transfer" pump? Then it leaves and goes up to the big fuel filter. It leaves the fuel filter and goes into the injector pump. All the way to where it goes into the injector pump it will "puke" fuel in spurts when I try to start it. I assume at this point it is the injector pump, but if I did not do something right or need to do something else, let me know and I'll try it.

As for LaVoie, I was talking to a shadetree mechanic that I know who says the timing will have to be set or make sure the timing is set (so that it delivers fuel at the specified time each cylinder needs it)... is this true and what will that involve? Sounds like something that will be very important and I'm not sure I would have the tools to do it. I can follow directions (I am married, after all) but is this something an average handy person can handle?

What do you mean by 'pukes'? You should see a nice full gush of fuel from the lift pump line. It may resemble a 'puke' when it is restricted, not pulling a full volume of fuel from the delivery line, or sucking air somewhere between the lift pump and the fuel tank. Unless that injection pump is known to be a piece of junk, you may wish to explore a bit farther. And yes, there is timing involved and unless you set the engine at a reference point before you remove the pump, you have no way to know where it will need to be even with a master spline. The injection pump drives from the cam which is half crank speed so you have half a cycle to be off - 360 degrees...

 

[LaVoie Equipment]

Timing will NOT have to be reset unless you have power problems.

When you remove the Injection pump from the engine there are shims underneath the pump between it and the engine block. DO NOT lose any. Use the ones they gave you and install the new injection pump. This tractor does not have slots on the injection pump to adjust timing.

NOTE: You will have to remove a couple of things before you can remove the injection pump - 1. Idle adjustment bolt, 2. Stop solenoid and PLASTIC guide (if you don't you'll break it - and it may not want to stop.). Other than that it is plug and play. See attached.

If your mechanic buddy is concerned, you can purchase a Shop Manual and go through the explained steps and time accordingly.

Tony

 

[CubMon]

Tony,

Sorry, I'm speaking of a rotary injection pump assembly, not a cam lobe driven pump. Yes, they are already 'timed' using shims....

Volvo MD series (1,2 & 3) sailboat auxiliary diesels used that type pump with a flyball governor....

Thanks

 

[MichiganIron]

You can check if it is the injection pump by removing the side cover under the injection pump. It's a little tough to see, but look up under the pump and you will see a pin that rides against the governor lever. You should be able to move the pin freely back and forth. If the pin is jammed, you have a rack problem, and are stuck in the off position. Do not try to loosen the rack up and start the tractor, which you may be able to do. The rack could stick in the on position next time.

Follow the steps described and make sure you don't drop the plastic solenoid stem guide into the gear case when you remove the stop solenoid. It is a white plastic shield that covers the solenoid stem. You will also remove the idle return spring housing opposite the stop solenoid. Assure the stem of the injector pump rack is aligned with the slot in the case, and pull the pump straight up. If it is a injector rack problem, you may need to reach through the side cover under the injection pump and move the pin with a screwdriver.

Other than that, you will need to remove the intake manifold to remove the pump. You may want new gaskets on hand for the covers at the injection pump and the intake manifold. When you remove the pump, you will notice the shims under the pump. Leave the factory shims in place to preserve the timing.

 

[cnorth]

LaVoie- Thank you for that document. It makes everything being explained much clearer.

Michiganiron- So you are saying that if that pin is stuck, that is how I will know for sure that the problem is the pump? The side cover you say to remove is the oil flange cover, right? Also, is there any chance I could replace parts (such as the pin that might be stuck) instead of the entire unit?

What I'm fighting with now is this:
I could replace the unit myself and I know the cost will be around $800.

Or I could have it towed to the place where I bought it for $150+$800+$Labor unless they can talk Kioti into helping me out on the cost. With only 190 hrs. and the warranty just running out in May 2010, I would like to think my chances are good they will help me. The only drawback is they do not sell Kioti anymore and I question what kind of relationship they have with Kioti to work out a deal.

Or I have to take it almost 2 hrs to the nearest Kioti dealer and take my chances with the $800+$Labor possibly offset with any help that we get from Kioti.

I guess my question is for the dealers (or any owners who have dealt with this) on the forum; do I have decent odds at getting help from Kioti under these circumstances or would I be better off eating the $800 and not taking the chance of travel costs, parts, and labor. I also called Kioti directly, but they only work with dealers. By the way, dealers, I still spend plenty of money buying little odds and ends (filters, sway bars, etc.), so they still get my business.

 

[sweettractors]

That is a tough decision to make. The selling dealer may not be able to help, the other dealer should help, but, you did not buy the unit from him and why should he fudge on the warranty or replace it yourself and you may still have the same old problem. Here in Kentucky, that is called, "being between a rock and a hard place". Maybe the Kioti dealers on this forum can give advice and make sure that you really need that pump? Ken Sweet

 

[CubMon]

Where'd he go?

The Volvo marine engines that have the same 'set in' injection pump have a similar arrangement for the governor - that is; a round rod with gear teeth like a rack that rotate the injection volume 'valve' on each injector pump piston. That rack is directly controlled by a flyweight governor with associated keeper springs. I guess they are all very similar...Sorry that I cannot be more specific to your engine...Maybe the expert will return soon to help you.

 

[LaVoie Equipment]

cnorth:

The cover with the pin Michigan was talking about is behind the Oil Fill Cover. The drawing (2nd page #7 & #8) - I sent you is not showing the pin but it is behind the Oil Fill cover. The engine front cover does not have to be removed.

Sorry I didn't get to you yesterday.

Tony

 

[KiotiDave]

Hi Cnorth,
Check and see if you have a business in your area that reconditions injectors and injector pumps. (Diesel injection service) We send out our pumps and they come back like new for 1/2 price. We do this all the time for customers that are out of warranty. They are a bosch type pump and parts for the rack are readily available in our area. We have 2 in the shop right now.
If you are mechanically inclined you should have no problem following the instructions the guys have sent you.
Good Luck,
Dave G.
KiotiDave

 

[MichiganIron]

The cover we are referring to is the small side cover below the injector pump. The pin is the small diameter pin against the governor lever. If you can't move the pin by hand, the rack is probably failed. You don't have to remove the front cover or anything else to check the injector rack.

If the rack is failed, contact your dealer and let them know what's going on.

 

[sweettractors]

Is this a common problem on that injector pump? Is Kioti aware of the low hours that these failures are occurring? We were a Kioti dealer for several years and I don't recall ever having this problem. Ken Sweet