Property corner markers

[Jstpssng]

Setting pins is easy; if that was all there is to it, anybody could be a surveyor. It’s all of the research of not only the lot in question but all of the abuttors. When the cost goes up is if the description has been copied and recopied for 150 years and still says “ by the land of Smith to a pine stump; thence in a westerly direction to where the old cow lies down in the afternoon”... giving no tangible bearing or distance. They need to recover time spent working up estimates for jobs, only to have Joe decide that it’s too much. Or when Farmer Jones had a 100 acre tract, and sold five 30 acres lots off it back in 1963; those are times when the science becomes an art. They also have liability insurance to pay for, and on occasion may even find themselves in court defending their work. Like any trade, all of those things affect what we pay.

 

[dodge man]

Setting pins is easy; if that was all there is to it, anybody could be a surveyor. It’s all of the research of not only the lot in question but all of the abuttors. When the cost goes up is if the description has been copied and recopied for 150 years and still says “ by the land of Smith to a pine stump; thence in a westerly direction to where the old cow lies down in the afternoon”... giving no tangible bearing or distance. They need to recover time spent working up estimates for jobs, only to have Joe decide that it’s too much. Or when Farmer Jones had a 100 acre tract, and sold five 30 acres lots off it back in 1963; those are times when the science becomes an art. They also have liability insurance to pay for, and on occasion may even find themselves in court defending their work. Like any trade, all of those things affect what we pay.

Well said.

 

[Diggin It]

Setting pins is easy; if that was all there is to it, anybody could be a surveyor. It’s all of the research of not only the lot in question but all of the abuttors. When the cost goes up is if the description has been copied and recopied for 150 years and still says “ by the land of Smith to a pine stump; thence in a westerly direction to where the old cow lies down in the afternoon”... giving no tangible bearing or distance.

But that's exactly what needs to go away. My deed refers to people and places that no longer exist and haven't for many years. Even without listing coordinates (which I still feel would be best), all of the hullabaloo could be eliminated by stating bearing and distance, even for irregular boundaries. Property descriptions do not need to remain so archaic. There is no reason to have to pay a surveyor hundreds or thousands of dollars to snip off a piece of property when everyone involved agrees to the points and those points can easily be articulated on paper.

 

[oosik]

The surveyor who did the NE job showed me something I would have never known. For whatever reason he did the survey in the dead of winter. He came in our house for his lunch break and to warm up/dry out. He asked to see the old government meet & bound description for our property. He showed us in the description - there would/should be two old trees with "scribing" on the cambium layer. Most likely hidden under bark now. We followed the verbal description and found one tree with the scribing on it. Had to knock off the bark - there it was. They had used some type of very sharp cutting instrument to scribe survey data on the cambium layer of this now old, ancient pine tree.

It's still down at the beginning of the driveway and is still visible. One of these days I should rub soot into the scribing and take a picture.

 

[fried1765]

Setting pins is easy; if that was all there is to it, anybody could be a surveyor. It’s all of the research of not only the lot in question but all of the abuttors. When the cost goes up is if the description has been copied and recopied for 150 years and still says “ by the land of Smith to a pine stump; thence in a westerly direction to where the old cow lies down in the afternoon”... giving no tangible bearing or distance. They need to recover time spent working up estimates for jobs, only to have Joe decide that it’s too much. Or when Farmer Jones had a 100 acre tract, and sold five 30 acres lots off it back in 1963; those are times when the science becomes an art. They also have liability insurance to pay for, and on occasion may even find themselves in court defending their work. Like any trade, all of those things affect what we pay.

A good explanation of what few understand.
Many hours of detective work are often necessary.

 

[BrokenTrack]

It does not take long down at the deed office to go off on a rabbit trail...

I have about everything for markers here...rebar, granite posts, pins that have been removed, intersections of rock walls, pipes, pipes with caps...

 

[BrokenTrack]

I have been on a multi-year hunt now with no success...

It is pretty remote here, with about 17,000 acres of non-developed land in front of my house, and some 7000 acres behind it. So it is pretty isolated. But on my Grandmother's death bed she told me about some relatives that were buried along the town line, on the Foster Road. Well that is all well and good, but there is no cemetery on the Foster Road along the town line, but on the next road up, about a mile away, there is a cemetery on the townline, but she insisted it was on the Foster Road.

So I went looking, about this time of year when the snow is off the ground, and when the leaves are off the trees. I followed the town line, but found nothing, so I thought in her sickness, she was wrong.

Then I talked to a surveyor. He said she was NOT crazy. He was surveying and found the (3) headstones, but "he could never get there again."

So I talked to my neighbors, and she said her husband was hunting, got lost, and came across the (3) headstones, "but could never find his way back."

I have looked for the past 12 years, and I cannot find them. I even used Superficial Maps since they highlight gravel deposits, and old cemeteries were always in gravel banks because the digging was easy, and depth to bedrock was deep enough for burial. The soil is pretty thin up there, so the gravel is limited, but none of those locations had headstones.

So the hunt is still on...

 

[MikePA]

But that's exactly what needs to go away. My deed refers to people and places that no longer exist and haven't for many years. Even without listing coordinates (which I still feel would be best), all of the hullabaloo could be eliminated by stating bearing and distance, even for irregular boundaries. Property descriptions do not need to remain so archaic. There is no reason to have to pay a surveyor hundreds or thousands of dollars to snip off a piece of property when everyone involved agrees to the points and those points can easily be articulated on paper.

To convert a deed from 'archaic' nomenclature and references would take quite a while ($$$) in just research. The same people who complain about the cost would not pay for this. Saying it should go away is one thing, paying for it is when people need to pay up or... To 'snip off a piece of property' requires at minimum, an accurate starting point. You don't just 'snip it off' when what is being snipped may not belong to you. Deeds will always reference adjacent property owners, e.g., along the property now or formerly of Mary Smith. Mary Smith's deed might have a more accurate/more recent survey that is valuable reference information. And when someone's neighbor wants to install a fence, build a building, etc., there have to be markers on somewhere in the ground, not just on paper, or the same people who complain about cost are usually the same type of people who would yell and scream the fence is on their property. Also deed descriptions need to 'close', i.e., you need to end up at the same point you started at, after traversing all the sides of the property. This is something we did before ever going to the field.

 

[dodge man]

A couple of things. The eastern part of the US is what is known as “metes and bounds” where the rest of the US is known as PLSS, it where the ground is divided in sections of ground.

Metes and bounds seem archaic because they are. The often read “starting at a rock by Bob Smiths house, then along a stone wall to a brook, then west to a big tree............. and so on. That’s just the way it was done. Coordinates seem like a good idea but for a lot of reasons that are too long to list, it’s not a good idea. Short story is it’s not that easy to get coordinates and too many different ways to get them.

Trees with marks. Used to be very common. The original government surveyors when setting section and quarter section corners noted bearing trees. These trees would have been near the corner and marked in a certain way and a distance and bearing to them recorded.

I’ve been surveying since 1984 and have never seen or found an original government corner or bearing tree. This part of Illinois was surveyed about 1817. The corners were almost always a post in a sod mound (maybe really a stick in a pile of dirt) and any bearing trees would be 200 years old. Further west they often did stone mounds and other more permanent monuments. The University of Missouri Rolla had a chunk of a bearing tree cut out and on display. The scribe marks are very clear and that’s the only one I’ve laid eyes on.

 

[fishheadbob]

My deed has lines like "then hence about 1300 feet to the large Elm tree.." , and "to the centerline of the creek for 900 feet, then 95 degrees to the top of the bank on the other side", and my favorite "800 feet along the old barbed wire fence to the Beech tree." Folks, the old Elm succumbed to Dutch Elm Disease in the mid 1950s, and every 10 year flood widens the creek and changes the banks. The mentioned Beech tree is long gone but numerous new ones have suckered up where it may have been. If you can find one scrap of barbwire fence, you can find three. There are more surveyor posts out there than you can shake a stick at, all within a few yards of each other. Thank goodness I have been blessed with good neighbors, dry gas wells, and relatively poor soil.
Surveyors have a thankless job deciphering the gibberish that took place a few centuries ago.