Property Taxes

[MossRoad]

At least income taxes tax you on money that you have. Property taxes tax you on things you bought with money you were already taxed on and no longer have.

Amen to that! :thumbsup:

 

[MossRoad]

Instead of a higher income tax, I suggest just add 2% or less to the local county sales tax and that way commuters, renters, tourists and all consumers help to shoulder the burden of all of the infrastructure they all use as much if not more than the ones who own property...It is a screwed up law.

The main problem I have with that is that people that make less income have to pay a larger percentage of their total income than someone that makes more income than them. Regardless of your income, you still have to get there. For example, a guy making 20K and a guy making 100K. If they both buy the same kinds of taxable items, say $10,000 dollars worth of taxable goods, they both pay $200.00 in sales tax. The guy making 20K is paying 1% of his total income in taxes while the guy making 100K is only paying 0.2% of his total income in taxes. Doesn't seem fair. That's why I would like to see flat income taxes with no caps. Even percentage across the board.

 

[scootr2d]

so ,
I'm taxed on my Gross, (taking out all kinds of tax goodies), then I get to put the net income pittance of what is left over in the bank , and they tax any interest I make off that. Then once a year I get to file my fed and state so they can tax me all over again there. when all is said and done I may have enough to pay my property taxes.

Course I did forget to mention all the other little taxes , ie goods I purchase, gas, home fuel,
depending on your state Social security , military pensions , ah yes 401k (for those lucky enough to possibly have one etc.. etc..

Didn't we throw a bunch a tea in some Harbor a short while back when England was doing this to us??

I think the last straw for me was when they has the nerve to tax my 'Bota A mans gotta draw a line in the sand somewhere

 

[MossRoad]

Didn't we throw a bunch a tea in some Harbor a short while back when England was doing this to us??

No. The Boston Tea Party was primarily because of taxation without representation. We have representation. We may not like the job they are doing, but we have representation.

 

[brin]

The main problem I have with that is that people that make less income have to pay a larger percentage of their total income than someone that makes more income than them. Regardless of your income, you still have to get there. For example, a guy making 20K and a guy making 100K. If they both buy the same kinds of taxable items, say $10,000 dollars worth of taxable goods, they both pay $200.00 in sales tax. The guy making 20K is paying 1% of his total income in taxes while the guy making 100K is only paying 0.2% of his total income in taxes. Doesn't seem fair. That's why I would like to see flat income taxes with no caps. Even percentage across the board.

I see your point Moss...OK then let's do this ..think of it as a user fee..it is not just property owners that use the roads, the police, the fire dept., the schools etc. tourists are accustomed as are business travelers to paying a tourist or occupancy tax at motels and hotels...so give the folks below a certain income level a card that can be presented at the cash register along with valid picture ID that exempts them from the user tax. Something has to be done to take the pressure off of property tax or as a previous posterfmentioned some elderly - retired folks will not be able to stay in their homes or on their property and it will impact even the younger folks...there has to be a limit or their will be no real estate market ..no one will want to buy for fear of the tax..Think about it...

 

[MossRoad]

Link to history.

Boston Tea Party - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[MossRoad]

I see your point Moss...OK then let's do this ..think of it as a user fee..it is not just property owners that use the roads, the police, the fire dept., the schools etc. tourists are accustomed as are business travelers to paying a tourist or occupancy tax at motels and hotels...so give the folks below a certain income level a card that can be presented at the cash register along with valid picture ID that exempts them from the user tax. Something has to be done to take the pressure off of property tax or as a previous posterfmentioned some elderly - retired folks will not be able to stay in their homes or on their property and it will impact even the younger folks...there has to be a limit or their will be no real estate market ..no one will want to buy for fear of the tax..Think about it...

That would require laws, government employees to administer, and more forms to fill out, etc....

Just think of it this way.... with a flat tax, on April 15th, you fill out a form that says
1. How much did you make in income last year? Enter in box A.
2. Multiply that by .20. Enter in box B.
3. How much income tax have you already paid this year? Enter in box C.

If the amount in box C is larger than the amount in box B, subtract the amount in box B from the amount in box C. This is your refund.

If the amount in box B is larger than the amount in box C, subtract the amount in box C from the amount in box B. This is how much more you owe.

Thank you for doing your taxes this year.

That's it! Then set up the same form for the state and make the percentage whatever percent your state votes for. Whatever it takes to eliminate property and sales taxes. That's it.

No more huge IRS. No more large state RS. Easy to figure. Easy to file. Same percentage paid by everyone, so everyone contributes. The little guy doesn't feel the big guy is getting a better deal. The big guy can still make as much money as he wants and won't be penalized by progressive taxes. Everyone would pay no property tax, and we all would like that.

Hmmm.... can we then eliminate taxes on beer, smokes and luxury items? :laughing:

 

[scootr2d]

I have always been a big proponent of a flat tax (or similar )system. How about a pay on oly the purchases you make , you want the big car , gonna pay a big tax, you want the big house , you pay the big tax .. want that big boat pay that big tax, that way people decide what tax they can afford to pay and live within their means.

True Scenario ,
My mom is retired , she has made all the money she is ever going to make.
She worked , raised 3 kids and kept a roof over our head. She no longer has a mortgage.. yet every year they raise her property tax. eventually My sister and I will have to figure out what to do to help her out. she will reach a point (in the not so distant future) where her Social security and very small pension will no longer cover her taxes. Even if she sold the house , the price of condo's in our area are so high she would actually have to pick up a mortgage again Just to purchase one. We have thought about a reverse mortgage for her ...

Truly a sad situation for an independent woman who was a contributor to the American workforce all her life and a great mom to boot.

 

[Bird]

I suggest just add 2% or less to the local county sales tax

I'm sure others have thought of that idea, too, and of course it just can't work. For one example, I know of a town with city council, police department, street maintenance, etc., as with most towns. But the odd thing about this town is that, until recently, there was not a single retail establishment in the city limits; not one. So that town had zero sales tax income. And even now, sales tax is very small part of the city's income, but there's lots of nice homes, small ranches or farms, very high dollar property, but low property tax rates.

 

[ultrarunner]

I have always been a big proponent of a flat tax (or similar )system. How about a pay on oly the purchases you make , you want the big car , gonna pay a big tax, you want the big house , you pay the big tax .. want that big boat pay that big tax, that way people decide what tax they can afford to pay and live within their means.

True Scenario ,
My mom is retired , she has made all the money she is ever going to make.
She worked , raised 3 kids and kept a roof over our head. She no longer has a mortgage.. yet every year they raise her property tax. eventually My sister and I will have to figure out what to do to help her out. she will reach a point (in the not so distant future) where her Social security and very small pension will no longer cover her taxes. Even if she sold the house , the price of condo's in our area are so high she would actually have to pick up a mortgage again Just to purchase one. We have thought about a reverse mortgage for her ...

Truly a sad situation for an independent woman who was a contributor to the American workforce all her life and a great mom to boot.

It is sad and that is why I'm all for predictability regarding property taxes...

My WA State neighbors live in a VERY modest home they 100% built 50 years ago... this is their home... three years ago, their taxes took almost a 50% jump.

Assessor said the land is valuable and their isn't much they can do... they had planned to live out their days in their modest home...

 

[dave1949]

True Scenario ,
My mom is retired , she has made all the money she is ever going to make.
She worked , raised 3 kids and kept a roof over our head. She no longer has a mortgage.. yet every year they raise her property tax. eventually My sister and I will have to figure out what to do to help her out. she will reach a point (in the not so distant future) where her Social security and very small pension will no longer cover her taxes. Even if she sold the house , the price of condo's in our area are so high she would actually have to pick up a mortgage again Just to purchase one. We have thought about a reverse mortgage for her ...

Truly a sad situation for an independent woman who was a contributor to the American workforce all her life and a great mom to boot.

I agree.

Property taxes are one of the most vicious problems for the elderly. Most probably didn't assume they would live as long as they have, so it isn't always about poor planning or lack of home financial management. Plus, who could guess how high they will go?

Maine has a property tax circuit breaker program that limits a person's property tax based upon income. It helps but I doubt if it is a total solution.
Dave.

 

[jinjimbob]

I agree.

Property taxes are one of the most vicious problems for the elderly. Most probably didn't assume they would live as long as they have, so it isn't always about poor planning or lack of home financial management. Plus, who could guess how high they will go?

Maine has a property tax circuit breaker program that limits a person's property tax based upon income. It helps but I doubt if it is a total solution.
Dave.

BUT.... who created the children that require schools? The old people did.

They voted yes on all the school taxes. Its their own fault, if they had children they should pay the taxes for ever, as long as they are alive.

They had the children.

 

[scootr2d]

ok , I'll say it so everyone can jump on me ...

jinjimbob,
As as a society are they not all our children , and our future ... don't we want them educated so they can compete in a global market place for high paying Jobs , so they can contribute more in taxes? And the hamster continues to run round and round on his little wheel........

Seriously , I do believe in giving future generations an opportunity for higher learning, But in my state tying education to my property taxes is just excessive and forces folks out of their homes.

 

[dave1949]

BUT.... who created the children that require schools? The old people did.

They voted yes on all the school taxes. Its their own fault, if they had children they should pay the taxes for ever, as long as they are alive.

They had the children.

Elderly folks can be undone by property taxes whether they had children or not, so your post doesn't make any sense in that regard.

Beyond that, if you have children, the children should become self-supporting around 20 yrs. old, so "they should pay taxes forever" makes no sense either.
Dave.

 

[tulenutn2o]

Lets all just remember that this country was formed by people fighting to escape taxes....Property taxes are a burden and penalize for improvements through said taxation. Taxes should only be collected on perceived value of improvements upon the sale of said property. Ex: you buy a house for a given price, you pay property taxes on that amount for as long as you own the home. Any improvements would not be taxed until sale. Maybe then , people could afford to improve their homes without fear of the tax man.My $.025

 

[2manyrocks]

"The protest movement that culminated with the Boston Tea Party was not a dispute about high taxes."--from the Wiki MossRoad posted.

I was under the impression that the American Revolution resulted in part because the colonists didn't want to foot the bills that Mother England was sending them for such things as the cost of the British army, and overall whether the Tea party was about high taxes or not, the Revolution could be characterized in part as a "tax revolt." I could be mistaken, but that's my impression.

Tennessee use to not have any sales tax. The sales tax was passed for the stated purpose of paying off school bonds, but now it is the primary means of funding all our state government apart from Federal funds. I forget what the rate was, but it has increased from something like 3-4% to 9.75% now, plus they've broadened the base to cover more goods and services.

We also have a property tax.

The sales tax and the property tax go for many other things besides schools (some of whose graduation rates calls into question their usefulness).

We all pay taxes in so many different ways that probably none of us actually realize the total amount we pay each year. Tax money is spent in such a way that there appears to be hardly any accountability in how the funds are raised, how they're spent or what results are achieved.

And to top it off, in my experience, the more well funded the local government, the more the local government sticks its nose into your business.

 

[tulenutn2o]

"The protest movement that culminated with the Boston Tea Party was not a dispute about high taxes."--from the Wiki MossRoad posted.

I was under the impression that the American Revolution resulted in part because the colonists didn't want to foot the bills that Mother England was sending them for such things as the cost of the British army, and overall whether the Tea party was about high taxes or not, the Revolution could be characterized in part as a "tax revolt." I could be mistaken, but that's my impression.

Tennessee use to not have any sales tax. The sales tax was passed for the stated purpose of paying off school bonds, but now it is the primary means of funding all our state government apart from Federal funds. I forget what the rate was, but it has increased from something like 3-4% to 9.75% now, plus they've broadened the base to cover more goods and services.

We also have a property tax.

The sales tax and the property tax go for many other things besides schools (some of whose graduation rates calls into question their usefulness).

We all pay taxes in so many different ways that probably none of us actually realize the total amount we pay each year. Tax money is spent in such a way that there appears to be hardly any accountability in how the funds are raised, how they're spent or what results are achieved.

And to top it off, in my experience, the more well funded the local government, the more the local government sticks its nose into your business.

Anytime money moves, government taxes it. You are 100% correct. That's why the tax code is 1000's of pages and so confusing. If anyone figured it out, the government would cease to exist for all the rioting and unrest that would follow.Big shell game. You know, there are places in the states where revenuers still aren't welcome. Years ago, the tax man didn't dare come knocking on doors, now he has all the power in the world to knock that door down.

 

[MossRoad]

I have always been a big proponent of a flat tax (or similar )system. How about a pay on oly the purchases you make , you want the big car , gonna pay a big tax, you want the big house , you pay the big tax .. want that big boat pay that big tax, that way people decide what tax they can afford to pay and live within their means.

True Scenario ,
My mom is retired , she has made all the money she is ever going to make.
She worked , raised 3 kids and kept a roof over our head. She no longer has a mortgage.. yet every year they raise her property tax. eventually My sister and I will have to figure out what to do to help her out. she will reach a point (in the not so distant future) where her Social security and very small pension will no longer cover her taxes. Even if she sold the house , the price of condo's in our area are so high she would actually have to pick up a mortgage again Just to purchase one. We have thought about a reverse mortgage for her ...

Truly a sad situation for an independent woman who was a contributor to the American workforce all her life and a great mom to boot.

Don't want to pry. Just say no comment if the questions are too personal.

When I hear stories like this I would typically ask if she saved for retirement, had a pension, relied mostly on social security being there or maybe didn't earn enough to allow putting something away for retirement. Some folks, including me, were never given lessons on finance. My dad lost his job several times when I was growing up. The family also had some medical setbacks. So I know things can happen to knock people's plans off track, too. However, it is good to explore and discuss these historical, documented situations to help young people realize that they need to learn about finances and what can happen if you don't plan to live to be 100 and you actually do live to be 100.

Just as an example if you put a $1,000,000.00 in the bank and the bank is currently only paying 1% interest, you will only get ten thousand dollars a year in interest. If you are currently making $50,000.00 per year and are used to living on that, you are going to have to dig into your savings to the tune of $40,000.00 a year just to maintain your lifestyle and that's not taking inflation into account. So you retire at 60 with a million bucks, suck 40K out each year and in 25 years when you are 85 your money is ALL GONE! You got 15 years left to live and no money.

Of course, that scenario leaves out lots of variables, like interest up and down, rate of inflation, social security supplement, less expenses for commuting to work, etc... but you get the drift. A million dollar nest egg earning low interest in the bank might not be enough to maintain a comfortable living for 25 years of retirement.

 

[Dargo]

Don't want to pry. Just say no comment if the questions are too personal.

When I hear stories like this I would typically ask if she saved for retirement, had a pension, relied mostly on social security being there or maybe didn't earn enough to allow putting something away for retirement. Some folks, including me, were never given lessons on finance. My dad lost his job several times when I was growing up. The family also had some medical setbacks. So I know things can happen to knock people's plans off track, too. However, it is good to explore and discuss these historical, documented situations to help young people realize that they need to learn about finances and what can happen if you don't plan to live to be 100 and you actually do live to be 100.

Just as an example if you put a $1,000,000.00 in the bank and the bank is currently only paying 1% interest, you will only get ten thousand dollars a year in interest. If you are currently making $50,000.00 per year and are used to living on that, you are going to have to dig into your savings to the tune of $40,000.00 a year just to maintain your lifestyle and that's not taking inflation into account. So you retire at 60 with a million bucks, suck 40K out each year and in 25 years when you are 85 your money is ALL GONE! You got 15 years left to live and no money.

Of course, that scenario leaves out lots of variables, like interest up and down, rate of inflation, social security supplement, less expenses for commuting to work, etc... but you get the drift. A million dollar nest egg earning low interest in the bank might not be enough to maintain a comfortable living for 25 years of retirement.

Ok, it shouldn't be any shock to you, but I may be a little strange. I started planning my retirement when I was about 12 years old. I figured that once I had "everything I needed" and no debt with a cool million in the bank, I could call it quits.

Enter high school. Mr. Carter made me re-assess my retirement plans. I still figured that if I doubled my amount in the bank, I could still retire.

Enter college. ****. I just had to take a couple of years of economics classes. This retire by the age of 55 and live out the rest of my life in comfortable leisure took a big hit. Move that savings figure to about 5 million.

Enter real life and this brutal recession. Also note, 55 years old just doesn't sound that old anymore. A mean, really, why quit at 55. Statistics generally say that one is still pretty well at the top of their earning cycle in their life. Why stop then? Move savings figure to 10 million and possibly move the retirement age. Getting married and having 5 wonderful kids along the way (and, no, I can sincerely say I do not regret having five kids in any way, shape or form) and things get more complicated with colleges reducing their scholarships and VMI just flat stealing from their cadets and students (I have this well documented with a few media outlets working for the rights to expose them) and it's even more complicated. My question; with five kids and a reasonable sized estate, can a guy really retire even if everything is paid off and there is 10 mil in the bank? Remember, you can NEVER own land in this country; you only rent it. If you don't believe me, just quit paying your property tax and see what happens. What does it take to retire and just live the life of leisure and travel at will?

 

[ultrarunner]

Anytime money moves, government taxes it. You are 100% correct. That's why the tax code is 1000's of pages and so confusing. If anyone figured it out, the government would cease to exist for all the rioting and unrest that would follow.Big shell game. You know, there are places in the states where revenuers still aren't welcome. Years ago, the tax man didn't dare come knocking on doors, now he has all the power in the world to knock that door down.

A elderly Irish friend of mine told me once the government can't run out of money because a dollar only has to change hands 3 times for the goverment to get it back... made me think.