PTO Pump

[jpm]

bob do you have a pic of the bracket your hoe use's to stop pump rotation?
the forks or tangs at the top of the pump are suppose to stopped by the red bar on the bottom of the pic."somehow" was a nice way to say !@#$ crappy design either the from the force of pump rotation or stuff hitting them from below and bending them up.of course dealer never saw anything like this 9 months later i thought i calmed down but now i'm mad again
doug if the pump lets go,its not going to hit my head but it will get where my brians are

 

[MtnViewRanch]

Brandi, put in some good ear plugs, crank up the rpm's and go to work. Let us know what that thing will do at some higher rpm's, that is how it was designed.

Just as a reference point, on my Case 580E, once I have a feel for it I put the rpm's at about 2000.

Good luck

 

[SPYDERLK]

I have 72 hours on my 6520 now. Is it alright to rev my engine that high for extended periods of time with this low number of hours to hit target gpm of the pump? I guess I will try 2300 rpm, even though it seems way high. My dealer is trying to get information for the PTO pump installation. I will see him again in the morning. If all else fails, I will just tie a string to the throttle and give it a jerk when I need more power.
Before I found out Mahindra used a Bradco BH, I was trying to find Bradco dealers in my area. It took days to hear back from someone off of their website and get a local dealer's name. When I called the dealer, he didn't even know he was a Bradco dealer, much less able to help answer my questions.
hugs, Brandi

The engine can be reved w/o damage. For long term I would stay below 2K until 100hrs. Reving abpve 1700 should give ONLY more speed - actual digging force is limited by relief valves. Perhaps your bypass in the BH is set too low. Or maybe the loader relief is low. In these cases your digging force would be substandard. Reving will give more speed, but only a tiny bit more digging force before the valve opens enuf to relieve the increased flow.
larry

 

[Dougster]

I have 72 hours on my 6520 now. Is it alright to rev my engine that high for extended periods of time with this low number of hours to hit target gpm of the pump? I guess I will try 2300 rpm, even though it seems way high. My dealer is trying to get information for the PTO pump installation. I will see him again in the morning. If all else fails, I will just tie a string to the throttle and give it a jerk when I need more power. Before I found out Mahindra used a Bradco BH, I was trying to find Bradco dealers in my area. It took days to hear back from someone off of their website and get a local dealer's name. When I called the dealer, he didn't even know he was a Bradco dealer, much less able to help answer my questions.
hugs, Brandi

I know what you mean about Bradco dealers. There are so many products out of Paladin Brands they can't even keep track. Do not waste your time talking to them. But I really do recommend that you talk to the technical folks at Bradco before making any costly move on a PTO pump. Sounds like your issue may be more related to dislike of high engine revs rather than inadequate tractor pump flow at rated speed. Get the necessary BH info right from the source. Obviously, if you buy a pump that needs 540 RPMs PTO speed... and that requires 2,180 RPMs... you are not going to be a very happy camper.

It really sounds like you need to do a calc to figure out the PTO speed of a 6520 necessary to achieve BH-required pump input HP... and then buy a pump... up to 14 GPM (or more?) flow at that minimum PTO speed... to meet your needs.

Dougster

 

[LarryRB]

With my 4110 only putting out 7.87 GPM (Mahindra spec +/-) at ~2,600 RPM, I need everything I've got to run my 509. Even at that, I'm not even in the range (9-12 GPM) Bradco says I need to be within for best performance. It works... and even works very well in certain circumstances... but I'm sure it must work a heckuva lot better at 12-14 GPM.

Ahh try a 511, even more needed,, My 4110 was lower, can't remember exact figure, but lower like 7.56 or something, A 12 gpm would [make that 509 a different feeling tool

 

[Dougster]

Perhaps your bypass in the BH is set too low. Or maybe the loader relief is low. In these cases your digging force would be substandard. Reving will give more speed, but only a tiny bit more digging force before the valve opens enuf to relieve the increased flow.
larry

I'm starting to wonder if this is my problem. Funny how I always seem to have plenty of boom and bucket power... but never quite enough stick power. I know I'm down around 8 GPM even at design speed... pitiful... and Lord knows that my technique is still crude at best... but it seems that I should be able to do a lot better with that stick.

The whole thread has got me interested in PTO pumps again. Dang... I've got to get off this computer or I'm gonna go broke!!!

Dougster

 

[Dougster]

Ahh try a 511, even more needed, My 4110 was lower, can't remember exact figure, but lower like 7.56 or something, A 12 gpm would make that 509 a different feeling tool

Well, we always knew that if I ever found that cherry used 511 somewhere at a bargain price that a PTO pump would be essential... but after talking with Bradco yesterday I am beginning to think the same of my 509. They just about laughed when I told them I was running at or below 8 GPM on my 509.

I remember seeing somewhere in my travels... maybe some dealer website?... that a 509 needed between 8 and 12 GPM while a 511 needed between 9 and 12 GPM... but yesterday the Bradco guy made it clear that BOTH machines are recommended for flows between 9 and 12 GPM. I am not even within the flow range for my BH at design RPMs... so how can I complain?

I really should investigate further that new 9.5 GPM spec on the new 4110's. If that is a new pump... and if it fits my 2004... maybe I should get it done right away. It's still got to be cheaper and simpler than a PTO system... and at least then I'd be "within spec"... even if only marginally... for this 509.

Dougster

 

[BobG_in_VA]

bob do you have a pic of the bracket your hoe use's to stop pump rotation?
the forks or tangs at the top of the pump are suppose to stopped by the red bar on the bottom of the pic."somehow" was a nice way to say !@#$ crappy design either the from the force of pump rotation or stuff hitting them from below and bending them up.of course dealer never saw anything like this 9 months later i thought i calmed down but now i'm mad again
doug if the pump lets go,its not going to hit my head but it will get where my brians are

Not sure what you're dirving at but the "forks" should be on the bottom of the pump, straddling the bar that replaces the swinging drawbar. Maybe that's why you "cycled" the pump....both the high pressure and return lines are nearer the middle of the pump, the forks probably can be put on at the top or the bottom, but in this usage, the forks and the major part of the pump ride below the line of the PTO shaft and straddle the bar thru the drawbar frame. Don't have a picture here, but its not a bad design and is identical to all other PTO pump setups I've seen (including Woods).

 

[BobG_in_VA]

You know, I almost forgot....I've got both 540 and 1000 rpm PTOs on my 6000. I tried the 1000 rpm pto on the PTO pump.....I figured if I could run the 511 at 1200rpm on the 540, I could run it at dead idle on the 1000. Well, yes I could, but I also figured that I didn't want to run at idle all the time, so I went back to the 540@1200 rpm. This is another good thing about these tractors and a PTO pump....you have choices...BobG in VA

 

[Dougster]

You know, I almost forgot....I've got both 540 and 1000 rpm PTOs on my 6000. I tried the 1000 rpm pto on the PTO pump.....I figured if I could run the 511 at 1200rpm on the 540, I could run it at dead idle on the 1000. Well, yes I could, but I also figured that I didn't want to run at idle all the time, so I went back to the 540@1200 rpm. This is another good thing about these tractors and a PTO pump....you have choices...BobG in VA

So true... and exactly the point of my first post on this page. If you want to reduce the RPMs while running the BH with a PTO pump, simply purchase a pump that will give you your desired flow at whatever RPMs you choose using either the 540 or 1,000 PTO setting... provided, of course, that at that RPM level you are still pushing through enough HP to the pump. You'll be awfully disappointed if you can't!

Of course, when you get up into the Daddy Warbucks-grade Mahindras, you folks probably don't have to worry about that too much!

Dougster

 

[jpm]

bob yes it was set up that way but 3,yes 3 times makes me think something was not right.
doug,bob did it i'm glad he was the tester ,not me

 

[Dougster]

doug, bob did it i'm glad he was the tester, not me

Yes JPM... but he merely used the 1,000 RPM setting to try lowering his engine RPM... still maintaining a reasonable PTO RPM I'm sure.

On the other hand, I was afraid you were going to crank that baby up to 1,000 RPM PTO speed and watch that thing melt on you before it would suddenly fly off and hit you in the head... after which you'd sue me for suggesting the idea in the first place!

So you see... *BIG* difference!

Dougster

 

[jpm]

doug i know what you meant only a fool would crank it up to the max but the fool would try to blame others
j

 

[bindian]

The engine can be reved w/o damage. For long term I would stay below 2K until 100hrs. Reving abpve 1700 should give ONLY more speed - actual digging force is limited by relief valves. Perhaps your bypass in the BH is set too low. Or maybe the loader relief is low. In these cases your digging force would be substandard. Reving will give more speed, but only a tiny bit more digging force before the valve opens enuf to relieve the increased flow.
larry

Larry,
I will rev it up then. I normally run the BH at 1700-1750. I will run the hoe around 2000 and see this weekend. If there is no difference, then you are probably right on target on the bypass set too low.

Dougster,
Can you give me the contact information on who you talked to at Bradco? Working nights and sleeping days with weekends off doesn't give me much "office hours" phone time. So far with Bradco, I have gotten the run around.

 

[Dougster]

Larry,
I will rev it up then. I normally run the BH at 1700-1750. I will run the hoe around 2000 and see this weekend. If there is no difference, then you are probably right on target on the bypass set too low.

Dougster,
Can you give me the contact information on who you talked to at Bradco? Working nights and sleeping days with weekends off doesn't give me much "office hours" phone time. So far with Bradco, I have gotten the run around.

Didn't think to ask for any names. I just called Bradco customer support using their toll-free number (800-922-2981), told them my issues and they connected me with someone who was helpful and seemed well-informed.

On the other issue, I think you need to confirm somehow whether you have the 11.4 GPM 6520 pump or (as many have speculated) the 17 GPM 7520 pump. This would make a huge difference in how you go about targeting that 12-14 GPM high-end range (i.e., right before the bypass opens) and do your further performance testing. Remember, if you have the 11.4 GPM pump, you weren't even up to the recommended operating range at 1,700 RPM. On the other hand, if you have the 17 GPM pump, you've already been operating slightly above the recommended operating range at 1,700 RPM.

Dougster

 

[bindian]

Brandi, put in some good ear plugs, crank up the rpm's and go to work. Let us know what that thing will do at some higher rpm's, that is how it was designed.

Just as a reference point, on my Case 580E, once I have a feel for it I put the rpm's at about 2000.

Good luck

I did three things different today. I checked the BH's inline filter. It was clean. The Ops manual just has a reference about it in the decals section about cleaning it. Nothing in the maintenace section. I then reved it up to 2000 rpm and attacked a huge sweetgum stump. I also turned the swing speed down.
Then I remembered I wanted to change the bucket link mounting hole postion. I had it in the standard position for getting the teeth up under large roots on the stumps to undercut the dirt. I switched it to the power digging position for 20% more bite. It tore up roots faster, but I was digging around a sweetgum and not an oak stump, so I am not sure how much better.
When I get up to 100 hours, I am gonna crank the rpm up more. Above 1900 rpm, the engine noise doesn't change much. But just before I retired for the evening, I took my glove off and laid a hand on the dipper actuator. I didn't leave it there long as the actuator was hot.
hugs, Brandi

 

[MtnViewRanch]

But just before I retired for the evening, I took my glove off and laid a hand on the dipper actuator. I didn't leave it there long as the actuator was hot.
hugs, Brandi

I'm going to be using the 580 this weekend to dig out some scrub oaks, I will check to see if its fluid gets hot. I have not ever given it a thought before. I will check back in with the info.

Later

 

[Slippy]

Well, let me throw my 2 cents worth in here. I have a 6000 with 511 bh as many of you in the thread know. I generally put the bh on a couple of times a year to get my bh work done. The only time I have had any concern about the bh and fluid was last summer when I dug a large hole to put in an 1100 gallon water tank. It was hot that day and I worked the bh hard for about 2 hrs. I got that smell and was concerned. As I checked things over, yes things were pretty hot so that you did not want to leave your hand on the bh.
I too have been interested in a pump, but for the amount of time I use the bh per year, the good performance it provides, the additional cost and time of adding the pump,etc, and the additional time for hooking things up, it just does not seem worth it, at least to me to make the switch to a pto pump. I service my 6000 every year with new fluids, filters, etc.
I just made a bunch of modifications to accomidate the grapple I purchased and added another set of rear remotes. To me, I got enough hyd stuff going on that adding more just seems like a lot more trouble than it is worth, and more hoses, etc than I want to deal with.
Having said all that, I would be interested to see some pictures from those of you who have the pto pump and tank, and how much additional time is required in making the switch out.
Applaud to all of you. Very nice job discussing the issues. Unfortunately for me, I am more of a visual person. Give me one picture or a thousand words, and I'll need the picture.
Will be putting the bh on in a few weeks after I get some mowing done and will pay a little more attention to rpms etc. As I have gotten better (which is not by any means good) on the bh, I have found myself looking for more speed in the digging, but certainly not in the swinging. As you know, the 511 has a swing control that is a real nice feature.

 

[Dougster]

I too have been interested in a pump, but for the amount of time I use the bh per year, the good performance it provides, the additional cost and time of adding the pump,etc, and the additional time for hooking things up, it just does not seem worth it, at least to me to make the switch to a pto pump.

I find it interesting that the 6000 4WD is the only unit for which Mahindra goes out of their way to recommend the PTO pump kit for the 509/511 backhoes in their literature. It must be like BobG_in_VA says: Kinda marginal on hydraulic oil volume... a possible overheating concern? On the other hand, here I am with a mere 7.87 GPM flow (vs. your 11)... not even in the Bradco recommended range at design RPM... and no specific recommendation for the PTO kit. Makes you wonder a bit about their thought process, doesn't it?

Dougster

 

[Slippy]

Yea, your right, here is what it says:

Optional hydraulic PTO pump kit available. Recommended for heavy-duty application, when used on Mahindra 00 4WD Series Tractors

If I had a good dealer, I would ask them this question: Why?

I am gonna chech the specs,
Farm tractors for Ag Farmers, Hobby Farmers - Sub Compact, Compact & Full Size 2WD & 4WD Utility Tractors
Here is compare of 6000 to 60004wd
GPM is same. Few diff in trans and pto, other than that...?