Questions about the PowerTrac 425

[Marks481]

Question: Do you think the Homeowner 422 PT would be enough? Is there a big difference in power/capability between the 422 and the 425 (besides the obvious 3 HP)? Seems like one major difference is the 425 has rear hydraulics for a backhoe, but we don't actually plan to get that, so why pay for the hydraulics?

I have a PT422. If I did it all over again, I would buy a PT425. Well worth the extra $3k or so.

Why:
1. Double steering rams on PT425. PT422 has a single steering ram, which has caused problems for some owners (ripped the fork supporting one end of the ram out of the bottom of the tractor. Repairable... as anything made out of 1/4" see is, but the PT425 design is better. The PT422 has the hydraulic cylinder underneath a false floor in the foot well, and that area fills up with grass and debris.
2. More power. My 22 HP engine is very challenged by brush hogging. I could do with some more power. One of these days I will be going for Kent/KMA's 28HP FI conversion. BTW, someone reported that PT would build you a PT425 with the Robin 28FI motor. Worth a try.
3. Higher from lift. Loading a truck is a challenge. A few more inches would make a big difference.
4. Higher torque wheel motors. Okay, I have never felt this is a problem on the PT422, but those with the more torquey motors like them.

The PT2425 is the model with the built in back hoe (rear hydraulics) Wouldn't want one because it looks like it has a higher center of gravity. If I had one, it would have been on its side more than once by now. Isn't designed for any other attachments from that point, although someone could get creative.

Honest, front quick attach only isn't that much of a liability when you get used to it. This thing is very maneuverable.

 

[MossRoad]

As i see it you may want to look at the new Steiner 440 will mow on steep hills and has a good number of front mounted attachments up to 40 HP. and it has the optional cat.1 3 point hitch. You can pull what you want?? jim

She wants to do ditching and road maintenance. The front end loader offered by Steiner for the 440 is borderline worthless. It's maximum lift capacity is only 365#, and its recommended transfer weight is only 200#. It weighs over 700# and you have to hook it up to the front PTO as it has its own hydraulic pump. Don't get me wrong. I'm a big fan of the Steiner tractors. But they are more for grounds maintenance of established grounds than construction of new grounds, and that's what the OP seems to be wanting to do. That, along with road building/maintenance and ditching makes the Steiner the wrong machine for those tasks.

A Power Trac with a mini hoe would make quick work of ditches. However, box blading would be my biggest concern. I'll leave that to the folks with box blades, as I don't have one. I know my PT425 does not have the traction or weight to bust up really hard, hard soil or packed clay between rocks.

 

[SpringHollow]

I have used a box blade with my tractor and it does not function as well as with a regular tractor. Given the weight etc of my tractor vs the smaller PT's, I would have to believe they perform less well.

Ken

 

[jfischer]

Very True Ken. I have not really tried my Box Blade much on a hard surface, mainly use it to level things out, and does a ok job at that. Takes a lot less time then back dragging with a blade, and does a better job of making the surface even and filling in holes.

I have used a box blade with my tractor and it does not function as well as with a regular tractor. Given the weight etc of my tractor vs the smaller PT's, I would have to believe they perform less well.

Ken

 

[MossRoad]

I used to rehab baseball diamonds at Little Leagues and churches with our PT425. We had some fields with packed clay and some with moon dust (granulated limestone). If it was dry, I had a heck of a time breaking the surface with our small bucket with teeth. The PT front would just lift off the ground. Only 750 pounds to push down with really. I have a single plow share that I mount on a quick attach plate. That concentrates the load on one point instead of the many teeth and I still couldn't break through the stuff. The only way I could break it was to get it at an edge and try to get under it. And even then, many times it would just stop the tractor and spin the tires. That's why I'm hesitant to purchase a box blade for our PT425. I'd like to see one in action.

 

[johara1]

She wants to do ditching and road maintenance. The front end loader offered by Steiner for the 440 is borderline worthless. It's maximum lift capacity is only 365#, and its recommended transfer weight is only 200#. It weighs over 700# and you have to hook it up to the front PTO as it has its own hydraulic pump. Don't get me wrong. I'm a big fan of the Steiner tractors. But they are more for grounds maintenance of established grounds than construction of new grounds, and that's what the OP seems to be wanting to do. That, along with road building/maintenance and ditching makes the Steiner the wrong machine for those tasks.

A Power Trac with a mini hoe would make quick work of ditches. However, box blading would be my biggest concern. I'll leave that to the folks with box blades, as I don't have one. I know my PT425 does not have the traction or weight to bust up really hard, hard soil or packed clay between rocks.

MR, where did you get that weight for the front bucket? I can pick up a full 48" bucket of modified with no effort. and to maintain a road with a crown and a ditch i would use a back blade. Nobody would use a mini hoe to hold a grade for along a road. I had a PT and it doesn't have the power or traction to pull category 1 3 point hitch implements. Nor will the PT. mow on hills with the new 440, and you don't need the weights like the old steiners or ventrac a 72" calls for 2 weights half what it use to and with their weight transfer system, you change it on the move. The only thing the PT has is hydraulic lifting power, but it suffers from lack of travel power. They all have their place, steep hills and mowing and 3 point hitch implements are not on the same page with Power trac.

 

[johara1]

I think the numbers you had on there were for the 430 and the stupid loader front. They have no numbers on the 440 as of this time but i did use my little slip scoop and picked up a heaped bucket of modified stone and that would be 5 + cubic ft. with no problem. Modified weighs 3000 to the cubic yd. so that would be 500 +lbs. in the bucket. Granted a PT will pick up more, but that is where it stops……...

 

[MossRoad]

MR, where did you get that weight for the front bucket? I can pick up a full 48" bucket of modified with no effort. and to maintain a road with a crown and a ditch i would use a back blade. Nobody would use a mini hoe to hold a grade for along a road. I had a PT and it doesn't have the power or traction to pull category 1 3 point hitch implements. Nor will the PT. mow on hills with the new 440, and you don't need the weights like the old steiners or ventrac a 72" calls for 2 weights half what it use to and with their weight transfer system, you change it on the move. The only thing the PT has is hydraulic lifting power, but it suffers from lack of travel power. They all have their place, steep hills and mowing and 3 point hitch implements are not on the same page with Power trac.

I think the numbers you had on there were for the 430 and the stupid loader front. They have no numbers on the 440 as of this time but i did use my little slip scoop and picked up a heaped bucket of modified stone and that would be 5 + cubic ft. with no problem. Modified weighs 3000 to the cubic yd. so that would be 500 +lbs. in the bucket. Granted a PT will pick up more, but that is where it stops?...

I got that information from the Steiner website, while looking at the 440 specs, and clicking on the attachments. Its a pop out so I can't get a link to the URL, but you can go to this page, scroll down to the loader and click the 'read more' button and there it is. Steiner Tractors Attachments | Steiner Tractors

I wasn't suggesting using a mini-hoe to crown a road. I was suggesting using a mini-hoe to scoop ditches, similar to how they make ditches with a gradall around here. You can't excavate below grade with a Steiner slip scoop. I don't know if you can with their FEL, but with only 365# of lift, I doubt it has much break out force. You can with a mini-hoe, and for that matter, you can excavate below grade with a bucket on a PT as well. It scoops out real nice ditches below grade.

I know the PT400 series doesn't have pulling capacity and I believe I mentioned that a couple times, and passed on how well it would do with a box blade because I just don't know. I'd have to see one running a box blade in person before I'd consider purchasing a box blade.

 

[johara1]

MR, If you look at the each attachment, it will have what tractor it is used with. I'm glad you told me you you can't dig below grade with a slip scoop……. i will quit doing it. I maintain my driveway with the slip scoop, granted it isn't the greatest but it does the job, and it will dig ditches, haul top soil and stone when needed. The Steiner will cut grass better than anything i ever had including a Ferris zero turn,Ventrac and the PT…….
I had a box blade on the PT but it worked but a bit much for it. i would try to find a light weight one. Nothing more than 4' and it should do ok just weld a quick attach plate on it. i also used a york rake i attached the same way that does a fine job also……… jim

 

[ponytug]

I understand totally the issue with "just" hiring folks. Not easy here either.

I don't know if this helps, but I use my FEL to maintain ditches, the way jfisher's shows, by using the PT crossways to the road. I can scrape a little material up to make a lip, or pull it into the ditch to take a big gulp and clean it out. Your road has to be wide enough, though.

Driving backwards is something that I've gotten used to. If I road maintenance turns into a big deal, I would look for an old D1/D2, park it out back and use it whenever you need it. If you do it well, and the road has enough material on it, you won't do it very often... Having a really heavy piece of equipment scrape roads is great; you get to pack the road with the dozer weight, and can get more down force on the blade.

I looked at the Steiner and the ToolCat, and for me, they don't have the lift and functionality, but much of the decision is very local. If almost all you do is mow, the Steiner is a great machine. If you need to much work with an FEL, there are, in my opinion, better options. Personally, I needed an all around tool that would absolutely function safely on slopes.

In the US, for slope work, there aren't a great number of choices. You have the PT, Aebi from Switzerland, and the AntonioCarrero if you don't have to go sideways on a hill (look at their slope specification closely, it is 5" narrower that the 1445, and much taller).

When in Rome... You need to figure out what you need, and buy the right tractor for you. You are the end user and it needs to be right for you. I think that if you visit Tazewell, you will get a sense for what it can do.

As a general purpose tool, I think these are really, really effective machines. If you have a specialized need, there may be better choices.

Have fun!

All the best,

Peter

Thanks for the invite. That's very kind. Would like to see a picture of the rake. Does it allow you to maintain your road driving FORWARD?

"Hiring someone" sounds easy but isn't around here. We have one traffic light in the entire county, no McDonalds, no Walmart, no hospital or other medical facility. In short, sparsely populated with very few businesses. The few good contractors are booked year-round (took us 2 years to get the electrician to come out). The companies from nearby cities always say they never go "all the way out there." It's the price you pay for living in the boonies. I could tell you stories of attempting to get workers--the yahoos who don't know what they're doing, the scary ones with ******** tattoos or who are on drugs--but I won't. So yeah, "hire someone" is a good solution....in theory.

This is one reason for buying some kind of tractor; to be less dependent on hiring this stuff out.

I'm pretty disappointed the PT can't pull any rear attachments. Seems like a major missing feature. And I can't see driving a box blade BACKWARDS up our roads, with a ditch on one side and a steep drop-off on the other. Have realized tractors aren't really designed for rough steep property like ours. Will have to think about this some more.

It's obvious that anything will be a compromise. Just have to figure out what makes sense.

 

[johara1]

You should be comparing 425 class machines, i see what you base your comparison on. How much lift do you need to clean a ditch with a front bucket? If it were me i would use a rear off set angled rear blade and clean the wind row up with the bucket. Faster, smoother and with the grade and not tearing the road grade up twisting and turning on it.You need a rear 3 point hitch to do this….. I had a old 422 and i changed engines to 25 HP. and changed wheel motors for 25% higher torque and it doesn't come close to the the Steiner 440 on a slope mowing and the quality of the cut, mowing up a 30% slope is easy, the PT will have trouble just going up with the mower turned off.

 

[SpringHollow]

Personally, I would not limit my possibilities to just a 425 class machine but try the PT 1430 as well if you visit the factory. As far as cleaning out ditches, I personally use a metal blade attached to my mini hoe and do it crosswise. Since you are pulling straight back using the FEL circuit and curl, there is no tearing up of the driveway. If you were trying to use it like you were digging and dumping to the side by staying still and just turning, you would. One could also use a 3 pt rear blade attached to the FEL via a 3pt adapter or connecting to it by welding an attachment plate. You could then do some serious cleaning in the same way as the mini hoe.

There will be no one perfect tractor. All are compromises in one way or another. I went through 4 used tractors before I found the best fit for my needs, the PT1850. If I ever dig up a basketball sized diamond, then I would buy another tractor or two to complement what I already have.

Research on line like you are but ultimately try various brands and models, look at your pocketbook and then get what best meets your needs. In my case, I went used so that I could buy more tractor. (Do as I say, not as I do - I bought my PT having never seen any PT no less having tried one.) I have never regretted that decision. Because this tractor meets my needs better than any other tractor, I literally use it at least 10 x's more than any of my previous tractors. If my needs were different, then I would be saying that about another tractor.

Ken

 

[johara1]

Try mowing your yard with a 1430 or larger machine and see what happens when the ground is wet……… Working side ways to clean a ditch is slow as paint drying thats why a rear blade will do it better and faster. A grader is the perfect tool but not many will cut your grass………. lol…..

 

[SpringHollow]

I suspect most people who own a PT 1430 mow with it. I have mowed my yard with my 1850 without duals and the 1850 is much heavier than a 1430. It is extremely rare for the ground not to be damp and a little soft here. The wide tires really do a decent job of spreading out the weight. The weight distribution really is as good as my ATV when I calculated it out (jack up a front wheel, wipe the tire with a wet rag, lower the tire down onto a piece of paper to get a decent approximation of the sq. in. of ground contact. Pounds / sq in =(total weight/4)/ the number of sq. in. measured above.). If the lawn is very muddy, I can not walk on it. We do not have top soil here, just clay. A push mower leaves marks in the ground when the PT 1850 will not.

If you have miles of ditch to clean out, then you need to make a special implement for the PT or get something else. With all of my trails etc, I have about a mile of ditch but only certain spots need cleaning out so I do not even bother with a back blade hooked up to the front loader and instead use the small blade on the mini hoe. BTW, swales are much nicer than ditches whenever you have the room.

It is really hard to tell someone what is best for them. There are always competing needs and wishes with any decision and one person will prioritize differently than another. For example, I would rather have a more capable used tractor than a new less capable one. Many that I know would not agree with that prioritization.

Ken

 

[johara1]

I don't know, i've run equipment my whole life and retired from it after 45 years.i seen the mess a 422 does to my yard due to weight and the stupid wheels on the back of mower deck. Your trying to tell me a bigger machine will do less? my yard has as much as 2' of topsoil, and if somebody runs off the stone drive it leaves a rut. If you want to talk ground pressure we can do that also. PT's lack of travel power is part of the reason they can't can't get around except on fairly level areas you can't feed fluid from the front travel motors to back ones without a power loss and with no weight transfer the machine wants crawl up the lift arms and it takes the weight off the front. So when the yard get soft and the mower starts to have resistance it makes a mess and on the side of a hill it starts to crab……… been there and done that………. Maybe where you are you can run a D11 across your yard and it won't hurt it, but here it won't cut it, I have 11 courses of block under ground to be solid for the foundation …….

 

[SpringHollow]

My yard is much worse than normal. I can guarantee it s worse than yours if you have top soil. As I said, a push mower leaves impressions most of the time. I can not speak to the smaller machines since I have never owned one. And yes, the PT mower wheels will definitely trench my yard because it is soft so I raise the mower a little. I have very little flat ground here - most is at 20 degrees, some is steeper than that. The only time I have trouble with my machine is when I am pulling a trailer full of logs up 20 degrees or greater and I hit a muddy spot. More than a couple of passes and the grass gets all chewed up and it is a mess. But my CUTs could never have made a couple of passes. They could not even go down the trails without getting stuck in the mud, no less going up.

Ken

 

[sirmombo]

I use a 1430 to mow my yard, which is a 16 acre apple orchard on 14 % grade and it does virtually no ground damage even if the grass is wet. I am using the brush cutter. It doesn't cut as evenly as a finish mower, but it looks good for an orchard. We also have a Kobota 72 inch zero turn mower. That is much faster and does a better job mowing, but does a lot more turf damage. It slips a lot when the grass is even damp and is uncontrollable when there are apples on the ground.

The main reason I went with the 1430 is how little ground damage it does and the visibility being much better than a skid steer. If I mowed with a skid steer, I wouldn't have any grass left.

I never saw a steiner in person. Without a FEL it wouldn't be of much use to me. Mowing is only one job for the 1430.

 

[Xfaxman]

Slope charts:

 

[ponytug]

I'm with SpringHollow; the red machines definitely float well on soft soils.. I believe if you look through the archives, you'll find some calculations on ground pressure, and yes, the bigger machines have lower ground pressure. They are heavier, but the tire area is larger. Even lower if you run turf tires. Again, I've never driven a 4XX, so I can't comment.

All the best,

Peter

 

[GirlWhoWantsTractor]

Thanks for all the info folks. A lot of new information. Believe me, mowing grass is the least of my worries. We already have the Huskvee, which does the job mowing, except on the two grass slopes that are 50% (per the chart posted above). Right now I do one of them with the Huskvee (downhill only, and thank God for the new road that cuts across, making a landing/turning-around space right before the 75% drop off--some pucker factor there). The other one doesn't have a good "landing place"; it ends in tall trees. No where to turn around, can't back up, can't go forward, can't turn around..... I pay someone to mow that one now. Would like to clear a landing place/turning around place there too; but if I have to, I'll let it revert to wild Frankly I don't much care about grass lawns....just a little around the house is fine and I ain't that picky. This isn't a golf course. There's only so much effort I'll put into farming something I can't eat, like tall fescue.

Really my main need is expanding the garden/orchard, or should I say "carving it out of the mountainside"; maintaining the long gravel driveway, the even longer steep road to the ponds, the paths around the ponds, and the trails all through the woods. Some of this is now just maintenance, thanks to hours/days/weeks of backbreaking work with shovel and rake. But a lot of it is making new. When I bought it, this property was a couple acres of weedy grass surrounded by 16 acres of Vietnam jungle--I'm sure you can relate. Former owners were city folks who never left the house except to mow the lawn. I want to leave a lot natural, but I'd like to be able to SEE some of it for one, and have at least a small path to walk all around it. Plus, let's face it, this is second-growth forest, and keeping some of poplars cleared out helps the hickories, chestnuts, black walnuts, come back. Not to mention our native (and rare) red pines. Can't let the poplars choke them all out. I also feel that by clearing out the ravine and spring, getting it flowing again, and creating ponds, has also created new habitat, as well as being nice to look at.