Removing dirt and going with concrete for barn.

[sandman2234]

Thanks, it will for sure be very rough.

I would think a "rough broom finish" would be enough, but exactly what a "rough broom finish" is... is hard to explain. A steel trowel finish, where it is slick as glass is never good for livestock.
David from jax

 

[cat fever]

Where are you storing those giant square bales?

Eddie,
I sell all the big bales right out of the field. As soon as they are baled I call the people who buy from me and they come. Although I am looking to get a hay shed just in case.

 

[crreed67]

I may have missed it reading through the thread, but how much do you reckon the ballast box weighs?

 

[scootr]

I've poured a lot of concrete, put down a lot of vapor barrier. I've never put plastic down over rock. We always put plastic on the dirt and sand on the plastic, my concern is the rock will penetrate the plastic every place you step. And you gotta step most every where to get it poured out.
Am I missing something?

 

[cat fever]

I may have missed it reading through the thread, but how much do you reckon the ballast box weighs?

Best guess is about 1700 pounds.

 

[crreed67]

Wow. That's a chunk of concrete.

 

[jyoutz]

If you are going to continue to store hay take the time to throw a vapor barrier down before you pour.

Or just store hay on wooden pallets

 

[scootr]

I would think a "rough broom finish" would be enough, but exactly what a "rough broom finish" is... is hard to explain. A steel trowel finish, where it is slick as glass is never good for livestock.
David from jax

A broom finish will wear off no matter how rough. I've seen a very rough finish... almost a short rake for livestock. Google found this idea for cattle among other ideas like one roller tool

 

[ruffdog]

Neighbor went with ground up asphalt instead of dirt and it didn't go well. It turned to powder and is dustier than dirt now. My wood chips are still holding up though.

 

[ROUSTABOUT]

I've never understood this. How does moisture in the ground turn to vapor and then penetrate concrete? Since every building should be on a pad slightly higher then the land surrounding it so rain water flows away from the building, if there was moisture in the soil under the slab, why wouldn't it travel the path of least resistance and work it's way sideways instead of against gravity and through solid concrete?

My understanding for the reason to use plastic under a slab, also called a vapor barrier, is to stop the moisture in the bottom part of the wet concrete from soaking into the ground resulting in an uneven curing process of the slab. This is only needed in soils that absorb moisture, or drain it. If you pour over gravel or on sand you would want plastic to keep the moisture in the concrete. If you are pouring on clay, there is no need for this.

Having said that, there is no harm in spending the extra money for plastic under your concrete if it makes you feel better.

Moisture seen on top of concrete is from condensation in the air.

I've poured thousands of yards of concrete. I still have two power trials, bull floats, all the tools that goes with it. I had a great aunt n uncle that had an early post WW2 house with no vapor barrier. She was squeegee and mopping all summer every year because of that. Take a slab without a vapor barrier, in a shed, and put plastic on top of it, plastic will be wet on bottom. I put plastic under everything except maybe a sidewalk. But I usually do that too. If I put wire in it, it gets plastic before the wire. I've poured 200 yards a day at times. Had 8 trucks waiting on me at 7am on the job. Had to get it poured before the load got hot and started curing. Then the trucks went back and filled up at the batch plant. The 8 truck rush kept us all busy and we poured the others as they returned.

 

[ROUSTABOUT]

I have thought about that. I may end up building a roof over the eating area to keep it dry, it will be facing south so that will help.

I had a cow that slipped on wet dirt and broke a femur.

 

[EddieWalker]

I've poured thousands of yards of concrete. I still have two power trials, bull floats, all the tools that goes with it. I had a great aunt n uncle that had an early post WW2 house with no vapor barrier. She was squeegee and mopping all summer every year because of that. Take a slab without a vapor barrier, in a shed, and put plastic on top of it, plastic will be wet on bottom. I put plastic under everything except maybe a sidewalk. But I usually do that too. If I put wire in it, it gets plastic before the wire. I've poured 200 yards a day at times. Had 8 trucks waiting on me at 7am on the job. Had to get it poured before the load got hot and started curing. Then the trucks went back and filled up at the batch plant. The 8 truck rush kept us all busy and we poured the others as they returned.

You are describing humidity and condensation. The plastic under the concrete has no bearing on this. It doesn't hurt anything, but in most cases, it's a waste of money.

If you break up a concrete slab, most of the time you'll find the soil under it to be so dry as to not have any moisture in it. If there is any moisture under the slab, it's because of a drainage issue and not from water vapor coming up out of the ground under the building.

If you take a chunk of that broken slab and put it in 3 inches of water, with just half an inch exposed, the top of the slab will never get wet. Some moisture will wick up the sides from the standing water, but it will never make it to the top of the concrete, and it will never make the top of the concrete wet. That will only happen when the humidity and dew points create moisture in the morning. Same reason why the lawn is wet first thing in the morning.

 

[grsthegreat]

I really like the ballast box design. I have a 1,000# box myself. I wish i added the tool and chain saw holder when i filled my box with concrete.
only problem i had with using ballast box, i may have lifter too much heavy stuff. I blew a front axle bearing a few months ago, and the added weight probibly caused that.

 

[ROUSTABOUT]

You are describing humidity and condensation. The plastic under the concrete has no bearing on this. It doesn't hurt anything, but in most cases, it's a waste of money.

If you break up a concrete slab, most of the time you'll find the soil under it to be so dry as to not have any moisture in it. If there is any moisture under the slab, it's because of a drainage issue and not from water vapor coming up out of the ground under the building.

If you take a chunk of that broken slab and put it in 3 inches of water, with just half an inch exposed, the top of the slab will never get wet. Some moisture will wick up the sides from the standing water, but it will never make it to the top of the concrete, and it will never make the top of the concrete wet. That will only happen when the humidity and dew points create moisture in the morning. Same reason why the lawn is wet first thing in the morning.

Professional prints have 6 mil plastic on the dirt. I know that houses that have plastic never have a moisture problem. I know every house that does not have plastic needs constant mopping.

So if you take your piece of concrete and turn a pot upside down on it and caulk it to the half inch that is above water, what will happen? That would be like a sealed structure being built on it. Then coat a chunk with flex seal and glue a pot on it and watch the results.

 

[EddieWalker]

What problem does a modern house that's fully insulated have when it doesn't have plastic under the concrete? I remodel bathrooms for a living and I cut out concrete on a regular basis. I've seen plenty of houses with plastic, and a lot without plastic. What do you think the plastic looks like after a few years?

What does the pot look like after it's flex seal and glued to the concrete?

And just to be clear, I'm not talking about what concrete does for a month or two after it's poured. I understand the process of curing, and the moisture is coming out of the concrete for months after it's poured. Which is where the plastic taped to the concrete test matters. There is a time when there will be no moisture under the plastic after it's taped to the concrete, which is when it's safe to install laminate flooring. It doesn't matter if there is plastic or not, there will be no moisture under the plastic sheet that's taped to the floor when the curing process is to a certain point that it's no longer releasing water vapor.

 

[ROUSTABOUT]

The plastic looks like new on houses built in the late 60's and 70's. My dad was a house builder and later I was too. I usually kept three going at a time. I was the contractor.

 

[cat fever]

Here's my 2 cents on the plastic under concrete debate;
I have never done it. With that said I have lived the majority of my life in Utah and now in Idaho. It is drier here than many other states. I have never had an issue with ground moisture coming through the concrete even when there is standing water outside the structure. To be fair if I moved to a wetter more humid climate I would probably use the plastic.

 

[cqaigy2]

What problem does a modern house that's fully insulated have when it doesn't have plastic under the concrete? I remodel bathrooms for a living and I cut out concrete on a regular basis. I've seen plenty of houses with plastic, and a lot without plastic. What do you think the plastic looks like after a few years?

What does the pot look like after it's flex seal and glued to the concrete?

And just to be clear, I'm not talking about what concrete does for a month or two after it's poured. I understand the process of curing, and the moisture is coming out of the concrete for months after it's poured. Which is where the plastic taped to the concrete test matters. There is a time when there will be no moisture under the plastic after it's taped to the concrete, which is when it's safe to install laminate flooring. It doesn't matter if there is plastic or not, there will be no moisture under the plastic sheet that's taped to the floor when the curing process is to a certain point that it's no longer releasing water vapor.

You can be talking about concrete in a dry climate, but for the rest of us we need a vapor barrier to keep moisture out of the structure.

 

[EddieWalker]

What does rain have to do with it? I'm in East Texas where it's not uncommon to get 3 inches if rain in a few hours and 4 feet of rain in a year.

Water in the ground does not turn to vapor and travel up through the ground and then up through 3 1/2 inches of concrete, to all of sudden turn back into liquid and settle on top of the concrete.

 

[kthompson]

I have read the first four pages. It really looks good. I raised square bales and they were stored on the ground and on concrete. Both surfaces moisture was major issue. Now we live on dirt with high water level and will hold moisture reasonably well. We still used old bill board signs (low cost if any) and pallets to set the hay on. It needs air movement between the hay and the floor. For us with both concrete or dirt.