Sand hill road help.

[txdon]

I need to make a temporary road this fall up a sugar sand hill. The sugar sand is so loose I can get stuck going up it in my truck (2wd). The road will need to be about 75 yards long up the hill. After the cement trucks leave and the house is complete the road will be taken up and wildflowers will be planted. The main road to the house will be around back to cut out all the dusty sand from the prevailing southerly winds.


Is there some sort of blocks, or something to roll out, or is about 10 loads of gravel the best solution? Budget for the road is about $1500 and the product should be able to be recycled for use on my other roads or drives. Thanks for any ideas you may have.

 

[Wiens]

txdon,

Have you looked at using concrete washout? We had problems with our sandy soil drive and had a 2-4" layer of washout placed on it. No problems now. When you don't need your road you could use your FEL to remove it or just leave it in place as a "backdoor getaway"

Kevin in Kansas

 

[bczoom]

TXDon,

Whatever you choose for the top material, I would consider putting road fabric down first. Around here (more clay), if you don't put it down, the rock goes down and the clay comes up.

Brian

 

[EddieWalker]

Hi Don,

Sounds like your getting closer start construction!!!! Very exiting, Steph and I are looking forward to seeing the pics.

That sand is just about impossible to stabilize if your going over it all the time. Rock will work it's way down unless you put an underlayment down first. If you go that route, you might be able to scrape up most of the rock when you're done and re-use it on your other roads. I've never used it myself, but in theory it sounds good.

My first thought was to use cyclone fencing laid flat. Field fence might even be better. In the Marine Corps I saw them use something like that on the beaches when traction was just about impossible. They had metal panals that were laid out and created a road for jeeps and trucks. Pretty heavy stuff, and probably very expensive, but I've always thought fencing material would do the same thing on a smaller scale.

Again, I have never tried this personally, just throughing an idea out there.

Good luck,
Eddie

 

[Farwell]

Give the cement folks a call. I am sure that they run into this situation all the time. I also like the ideas already posted.
Farwell

 

[Larstan]

The stuff Eddie is talking about is called 'PSP' or pierced steele planking. We used it in the army also, great stuff but real heavy. But I think Eddies right, you are going to need something that will ride on the surface. Be interested to see what you decide. /forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif

 

[OkeeDon]

Sugar sand is a real bear. I had the same thoughts as Eddie -- almost any aggregate you put down will disappear unless your put down a geotextile cloth first. Even if you were able to have it paved, it would crack very quickly under the weight of cement trucks, because the sugar sand is so unstable beneath it.

How steep is the hill, for how long a period do you need the road, and how much rain would you expect to get during the period? I don't really need the answers to those questions, but if you can answer them for yourself, it might help you judge my suggestion. Back when I was working for a development company which was building many roads through sugar sand, they would make temporary roads by cutting pine branches and palm fronds and creating a thick layer. Maybe there's some vegetation on your property that would work as well?

It would be bumpy at first but a couple of passes by big trucks and it starts to break down and smooth out. Of course, it's very temporary -- probably last for a month in Florida, maybe a little longer in Texas, and then you'd have to do it again -- or just keep adding to it. The best part is, as it breaks down and works into the sugar sand, it's improving the "soil" and doesn't have to be removed. Material cost is free; labor might be too high.

As I'm sitting here thinking this through, and thinking about the way the stuff might wash out if the hill is too steep and there is a heavy rain, it occurred to me that Edddie's idea of the wire fence might work very well in combination with the brush! Lay dow a thick layer of brush, then put down two lanes of wire fence to hold the brush in place and spread the load over it. Tractor Supply sells the red top wire fence for about $115 for a 330' foot roll; you'd need two rolls and maybe some stakes.

 

[Farwell]

Don,
I like your idea of using what is available on the property to help build a useable surface. I have done something similar in a low wet area of my property that I have to drive my tractor through on occasion. I cut small trees and brush and lay them across the area and add dirt with my FEL. I keep doing the tree and dirt thing until the drive path is stabilized and long enough to get me past the wet area. Have not thought about adding the fence material and will try that myself. I also find that when I need to dig in my sugar sand adding moisture helps, so maybe soaking the sandy area until the moisture penetrates into the brush, fence, dirt and deeply into the sand will help in this situation as well.
Farwell

 

[txdon]

Thanks for the suggestions. I will check with the cement people to see what has been done. They did come out to a more stable site about 7 years ago for my tractor shed and they almost got stuck. They told me up front if they get stuck I pay for the tow out. The wetter the sand gets the firmer it is, kind of like driving on the beach near the water compared to driving on the sand dunes. I like the idea of using underbrush and then let it rot to compost. I have many cedars that could be used for this. Of course this would be more work upfront. The fence idea may be the one that works but at the least I need some sort of fabric so the rocks don't disappear. The only problem with that is taking up the gravel with the front end loader and the fabric or fencing being a pain to deal with - more labor later. I have a couple of months to toss the ideas in my head and keep my eye open for any new products.

OkeeDon, attached is a picture, the yellow dots are where the road will run, the last 25 yards is the steepest. The first slab will be the garage/storage/temp workshop behind the house and the road will go over the house site. I will then remove the top part of the road and continue digging the basement. This is going to be a fun retirement project! One day at a time. /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

edit: Does anyone have any experience with Grasspave2 or gravelpave2 ? Cost?

 

[Nat]

My ex BIL biult a new house down an old farm road, and didn't want to spend a lot of money for gravel till most of the construction was done so as not to put mud on top of new gravel so he put some old chain link fencing it the muddier spots, You didn't sink on it but traction was a problem with our red clay. After a few weeks of trucks running over it the ends curled up and got wedged in the wheelwells of several different trucks, and 1 guy told my ex BIL that if he didn't remove it from his truck he would sue for damages. He finally took it up with a tractor and subsoiler, and had to cut it off the subsoiler with a OA torch.
I'd check on some concrete wash out if you don't want to cover the sand with limbs, which will work, that's how we used to get in and out of the woods with pulpwood trucks. HTH, later, Nat

 

[Taylortractornut]

what wee do at the landfill we run the hills are all sgars sand. We leave the clay in the bottom of the hollows and make a lift then start getting the dirt off the sides of the hollow for the first run till we hit sugar sand then we use that for cover. FOr the trucks to run on it we take and get a few scraper loads of red clay and set the bowl 3 inches off the ground and dump it out and spread it then come back with another load and start dumping at the end of that one till we have reached the lift. The compact that road with the scraper and it stays there in the winter time we may add a little gravel ontop for truck traction.
if its gonna be used alot we will just use a layer of 3 inch ston on the claybut thats rarely used. When we are doned wit ha section of road we scrape up the agregate and the doze the the road bed and use the clay for rubbish cover. Onther trick we use if we are doing a a job around a house that is having carpet removed and there is a wet spot of 2 or 2 on the ground is to unroll the carpet otno the wespot and cover with gravel. that helps us recover the gravel as well as stabilize a soft spot.

 

[Wiens]

txdon,

The concrete washout acts as a bridge across the sand. Many homeowners have spent small fortunes trying to make their drive solid with gravel, rock, fiber material, more gravel, more rock, etc. They finally put down a layer of washout. Around here all it costs is a $25 per truck load "loading" fee and the trucking fee. It will be a solid roadbed, just put some road gravel on top to make it all weather. Trust me on this one............

Kevin

 

[RodgerF]

</font><font color="blue" class="small">( OkeeDon, attached is a picture )</font>

You really should stop spinning the tires before you bury the tractor so deep. /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

 

[jinman]

Disclaimer: I have no useful suggestion whatsoever. This post is probably about something so illegal that I'll deny having made it at a later date. /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

I remember as a kid going to visit my uncle who was a pumper in the oil fields of west Texas. Those sugar sand roads we travelled on his daily route were hard and packed because they were soaked in crude oil. I just wonder if they still do that anywhere? Surely the EPA has put a stop to that practice. /forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

 

[Slamfire]

</font><font color="blue" class="small">( Disclaimer: I have no useful suggestion whatsoever. This post is probably about something so illegal that I'll deny having made it at a later date. /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

I remember as a kid going to visit my uncle who was a pumper in the oil fields of west Texas. Those sugar sand roads we travelled on his daily route were hard and packed because they were soaked in crude oil. I just wonder if they still do that anywhere? Surely the EPA has put a stop to that practice. /forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif )</font>

Probably, more and more county road boards are paving roads that used to get the oil and chip treatment.

 

[Farwell]

Kevin,
Just called my local Rockcrete company and was told that I can get washout delivered for $10 per yard. Do you know how many yards you get for the $25? If I decide to go this route I will try to negotiate a lower price for getting around 100 yards. I am a little over 5 miles from the supplier.
Farwell

 

[Wiens]

Farwell,

It's been several years since we (my neighbors and I) bought our washout. We actually got the washout loaded free (one neighbors cousin owns the concrete plant); normal loading fee is $25 per truckload. I assume the truck holds 16-20 tons, not sure how that converts to cubic yards. I paid a friend from church $40 per truckload to haul it 10 miles to my house. The trucks were his custom harvesting wheat/silage trucks with 24 foot beds and 6 foot tall sides. He brought in 10 truckloads for a drive approximately 800 feet in length, ten feet wide. We had a payloader come in to spread the washout evenly on the lane. Cost was $100.

Total cost was $500 divided by four neighbors. Should have cost $750! Not a bad investment for a stable and solid lane. We have had no rutting or any other problems since the washout was laid down. The only other cost was two loads of road gravel for $225. I drag the lane once or twice a year with the neighbors 8N to get the gravel back into the tire tracks. What worked for us may not work for others.

Hope this helps!

Kevin

 

[em14]

I would not use fencing as it will roll up under use. I doubt that you can anchor it very well either to prevent this roll up. You almost have to "bridge" the sand in this case or at least build a enough structure of rock or something like concrete washout. In Cam Ranh Bay there was a round sand that was like building on marbles and even PSP didn't work well. There lots of rock and asphalt used in the construction of roads there. So in dealing with Florida sugar sand they use lots of limestone.

 

[LBrown59]

</font><font color="blue" class="small">( I can get washout delivered for $10 per yard. .
)</font>

What is concrete wash out?

 

[Wiens]

LBrown59,

Good question!.

When a concrete truck delivers concrete not all of it removed from the drum at the job site. When the truck returns to the mix plant they "washout" the drum. This is left to dry and then stockpiled. It is a powdery substance unless it is wet from rain. When placed on the ground in a 4 inch layer it will harden forming a "bridge" over the sand. Gravel placed over it will not sink down into the sand.

Hope this helps clarify the term "washout".

Kevin