Seized engine? Need some advice.

[Kernopelli]

Well, tried to lay down before work and there was no way I could sleep....I had to see those bearings. The bearings didn't "fall off" but it didn't take much effort at all to remove from journal. The split was easily reached with a screw driver and I pushed the blade into the split between bearings and they pulled away from the journal easily and fell through the bottom end.

I got the bearings from the goo catch pan and they are not good, they are galled and you can see that the bearing just barely started to spin.....like +1/2 revolution. I had my son rotate the crank while I shined a bright shop light down the bore and the crank has some light bearing material "welded"(?)on one side and is discolored and/or lightly scratched just about all the way around.

 

[Don87]

Well, now we know what caused it to seize.

Time for some crank work, and bearings.

 

[Kernopelli]

Piston, rings, cylinder looks perfect.....or as perfect as you could ever expect a 1400 hr to look but it's all pretty darn good. Honestly, didn't even "look" (examine) at head yet....didn't see the need but will.

 

[Don87]

Piston, rings, cylinder looks perfect.....or as perfect as you could ever expect a 1400 hr to look but it's all pretty darn good. Honestly, didn't even "look" (examine) at head yet....didn't see the need but will.

We know you need the 'bottom end' done at least. Might not hurt to think about going farther if you are going to keep the machine.

 

[whodat526]

Well, tried to lay down before work and there was no way I could sleep....I had to see those bearings. The bearings didn't "fall off" but it didn't take much effort at all to remove from journal. The split was easily reached with a screw driver and I pushed the blade into the split between bearings and they pulled away from the journal easily and fell through the bottom end.

I got the bearings from the goo catch pan and they are not good, they are galled and you can see that the bearing just barely started to spin.....like +1/2 revolution. I had my son rotate the crank while I shined a bright shop light down the bore and the crank has some light bearing material "welded"(?)on one side and is discolored and/or lightly scratched just about all the way around.

if its not to bad you can use emory cloth to get it clean i have done it many times

 

[Don87]

if its not to bad you can use emory cloth to get it clean i have done it many times

The crank looks pretty rough after blowing up the picture. But pictures can be deceiving at times.

 

[Garybake]

Take a pipe cleaner and run it through to main cap feed. That rod quit getting oil for a reason and spun. Rarely will bearing tab allow spin and lack of oil. Too many hours to have isolated rod bearing problem. I would check rod / piston pin float and rod straightness from a previous hydraulic lock to that cylinder. Some trauma from another source. That much material loss is embedded in all other bearings and pump gears. Sorry for depressing news.
Total disassembly required but take time now and be a good detective. You need to know why. Keep us posted. PS (I do not believe an idle will not eat up that much bearing shell side wall)
Gary

 

[Kernopelli]

The crank looks pretty rough after blowing up the picture. But pictures can be deceiving at times.

I was actually wondering about the emory cloth. It really appears to be material deposited on the crank and something that almost appears to look like adhesive. I really don't think much if any of the scoring is in the crank but is actually smeared material or scratched in deposited material. The pic didn't do it justice at all, very hard to get a good pic, I took 5 and that was the best one.

 

[Don87]

I was actually wondering about the emory cloth. It really appears to be material deposited on the crank and something that almost appears to look like adhesive. I really don't think much if any of the scoring is in the crank but is actually smeared material or scratched in deposited material. The pic didn't do it justice at all, very hard to get a good pic, I took 5 and that was the best one.

You can try the emory cloth.........nothing beats a try but a failure.

But as Garybake said, you need to find out why oil stopped flowing to that rod bearing.

But be sure to take the rest of them off and check for wear.



EDIT: You have a few 'chunks' on the crank. If you do it carefully, sometimes those chunks come off relatively easily with a tiny screwdriver. Do this before the emory cloth, things go faster that way.

 

[Hooked_on_HP]

As Garry said I don't think all the damage occurred while it was idling. You were just lucky that it was idling when it finally seized. I would look at the rest of the rod bearings. The uppers will have the most wear. If all the uppers are wore thin the engine has been lugged a lot. If it were mine I would have the crank turned. Cranks are micro polished to prevent wear. Emery cloth will scratch the crank. If it were an old beater I would say try the emery cloth. In your case I would want it done right so it would be as dependable as new. Talk to a local reputable machine shop and see what they say. If you don't know of one ask you tractor dealer who they use.
Bill

 

[rasimmo]

I agree with Hooked. I would not use emery cloth on that. I have done that on an engine to get it running long enough to keep out of a jam while parts were made. That was a short term thing and we were doing a complete overhaul after the parts got in. I am not sure what the exact specs are, but it is supposed to be a few thousanths clearence. You will be suprised how much you can take off with a few passes of emery cloth. I would do a complete tear down as others have said.

 

[Hooked_on_HP]

Before you take the rest of the rods apart make sure each half is numbered, If they are not use an engraver to number them. I am wondering if you didn't have a low oil pressure issue at idle. This could be caused by a stuck pressure relief valve in the oil pump or a worn oil pump. I am assuming your tractor has a warning light and not a gauge. If you had a gauge you might have noticed the drop in pressure.
Bill

 

[KYErik]

Before I took the took it all apart, I'd plug the oil passage leading to the head with my finger, remove the oil filter and shoot compressed air into the center pipe that the oil filter screws onto. By doing this, you can see if oil and air come out of the oil hole on that journal of the crank. If oil and air come out that hole, then it wasn't a plugged oil passage that caused this issue- Like "hooked on HP" said, maybe it was low oil pressure.

 

[Johnp33]

I am not there, and a picture is a very poor way to judge, BUT I have seen some very ugly looking cranks clean up perfectly. What I would do is take solvent and 120 grit emery and polish off the deposits. use your thumb and finger tips or get the babbitt off. DO NOT just use long strips, untill the very last. You want to take off the deposits, it takes time, and effort, and you will get dirty. If there is no metal transfer, steel moved on the crank it will be OK. I have cleaned up class eight motors that seized, while under a full pull that were OK after this repair. I did not believe it would work when I was told what to do.
When you get the crank cleaned turn the motor, so the throw is up, then with the main bearing cap off blow threw the main oil galley with solvent and air to clean out the crank. be sure the piston cooling nozzle is OK. remove the rings from the piston and drop it in and with a new rod bearing check the clearance. If it is good you are a winner, if not you got dirty. You have to do all the bearings. Hone out the cylinder, and re-ring at least the one piston. Get the head checked and heat cleaned. It all depends on what the crank looks like and the clearances you get.

 

[Doppelgangar]

One can see what the problem is but one can not fix the problem until the cause of that problem is sorted out.

You may have had low oil preasure at idle and that could be due to a may of things. Low oil preasure woll cause wear on the crank. Measure the crank is the only way to tell if it is worn. You will need to pull the oil pump and check the releif valve. failing to do this will mean there is a likelyhood of this happening again.

Had the engine been run low on oil at any time previously. I mean any time in the life of the tractor. this includes when you had not been opperating it.

Have the oil and filters been changed when they should have as the oil may have had that much dirt in it it may have blocked the oil filter pumping dirty oil into those bearings and every other part.

has the tractor been operated with low oil level causing starvation on hill etc.

All these things have to be taken into account.

You have the option of makeing a quick repair at as little cost or do a proper job. You could buy a second hand motor/ parts tractor and do a engine swap.

Take a look at all of your options, the work that you want that tractor to do and what is your most cost effective. A good machine shop may just polish the crank if it is with in manufacture guide lines and measurements. Taking short cuts here will mean there will be a short life in the motor in the future.

 

[Kernopelli]

REALLY(!) appreciate all the responses and sound advice. I suspect I am going to try cleaning up the crank myself first and see how that goes. Don't really have an issue with tearing the engine down completely if I have to and we have a good machine shop near by that can do any crank work if need be. I have had this tractor for 8-9 yrs and plan on keeping it that much longer so a quick fix would be great but whatever is done has to be reliable for the long haul. I've got a Sunnen Hone and flex hone set if I need to freshen the bore for new rings. I've taken several gas engines to .010 over using the Sunnen set with great long term results but don't think that will even be a consideration here.....maybe just new crosshatch if I decide new rings are in order. Main problem right now is time....worked 48 hrs of overtime this week and I don't see that letting up much any time soon. The plus side is a week of O.T. net is more than enough for a quote I've already gotten on a complete low hr. engine shipped from oversees, which is probably cheaper than parts and machine labor if it goes much farther than turning the crank, bearings, rings,head gasket, +, etc. I haven't gotten any parts quotes yet but do know they add up very quickly for this particular engine. Right now I don't think parts will exceed the price of an engine swap but it wouldn't take much to make the difference sway towards a swap.

Going to try to look at it tomorrow morning, will update as soon as I know more. I am concerned that even #400 emery cloth will leave the journal too rough. I know I could go to strips of the super fine sand papers or compounds after that but would like some opinions on what would be the best way to leave a (DIY) truly polished surface?

 

[Johnp33]

I have resurrected quite a few cranks and I used 120 to get the crap off and then if you want you can use anything to polish it. If you are wondering about the crank, use the bearings from anouther rod and use plastigage on it to see whether the crank is damaged.
Their actually use to be outfits that could come out and grind the rod throw in place, that was many years ago but you loose nothing to ask a few machine shops.

 

[Garybake]

Darryl, Tomorrow you may first want to look at oil pump gears. That will be your first indication as to how much trash has been pushed throughout oil passages (rockers, cam journals, inside lifters). Oil Filters do NOT filter 100% of oil that passes through those gears. Cut open filter as well to help you decide before investing your valuable time (Overtime may be better investment of time unless you enjoy motor work more like some of us :cool2:.)
Good Luck! Keep Posting!
Gary

 

[Diamondpilot]

If I could put it back together cheap and quick thats what I would do. Use your overtime money to buy a new engine if needed and rebuild this one when time allows and on the bench. You could sell it for a profit on ebay or whatever.

Chris