Septic Pet Peeve

[dmccarty]

...
they keep a used toilet paper waste paper basket and nightly it is burned...

I knew that would get the conversation stirred up. :laughing::laughing::laughing:

In the boat world, some people do this as well. Some people put in "composting" heads aka toilets on their boats. The toilets are not really composting but desiccators. The "solids" stay in the toilet while urine goes into a different container. One of the better systems as far as I am concerned is sold by an Ex Green Beret and the urine goes into a normal one gallon milk jug instead of a specialized aka expensive container.

Anyway, smells are from the urine and if you keep that away from the solids things are not so bad. The "composting" heads require a media like peat moss, coir, wood chips, etc to dry out the solids. This requires turning a crank which mixes things up. What I do not understand is that some people will not put the used TP in with the solids. It would just help things dry out but instead they put it in a bag.

When filled, you empty the milk jug or "composted" solids in a legal way. Having said that, given the EPA regulations I really wonder how many people with the compositors are really legal in getting rid of the waste.

Apparently, it is common in other countries to have container in the bathroom to hold used TP. If you flushed the TP it could clog the system.

Later,
Dan

 

[roadhunter]

Excessive water use in my opinion.
I predict water and energy will be precipitate (note the word play) the next "civil war" (not necessarily and armed conflict)
here in the US. That is if politics doesn't get in the way ;-)

Act responsibly! 150 gallons a day is NOT responsible, it is reprehensible.

My "Pet Peeve" is toward those who would accept that level of use as sustainable.

I know here in Nebraska domestic water (Around 5%) use is just a very small fraction of what irrigation uses (around 90%). Ultimately that is going to be the issue as water will either go to people or to farming as there is not enough to satisfy both. My guess is farmers will win as they have an amazing amount of political pull. People will be forced to treat sewage and reuse as drinking water which is already happening or desalinating ocean water which is also already happening on a huge scale in places like California.

 

[dmccarty]

Well I must be full of something because here is my third post in a row about septic systems. :laughing::laughing::laughing:

It is an election year and there fore time to pump my septic tank. I got us on a pumping schedule that lines up with the presidential elections to remind me when it is time to pump out the septic tank.



Later,
Dan

 

[dmccarty]

... People will be forced to treat sewage and reuse as drinking water which is already happening or desalinating ocean water which is also already happening on a huge scale in places like California.

When I am at work and flush the toilet, it is treated and dumped into a lake. That lake is used for drinking water for many of the people in the region. People are already drinking treated sewage but they don't know it. I heard/read years ago that the water in the Thames river is "used" 6-7 times before getting into the English channel. I have not idea if that number is correct but it is believable.

Years ago into FLA, there was a big water shortage and the Sugar Cane bandits tried to blame the people of South FLA for using up the water. I think it was 75% of the water in the region was used by the Sugar Cane "farms."

One of the counties was pumping treated sewage water underground. :shocked: The EPA would no longer allow them to pump the water offshore in to the Gulf Stream so they had to pump it underground. THEY said that the waste was being pump well below any drinking water supply and the water tables were separated by leak proof rock layers.... But where is that water going? Hmmm?

Later,
Dan

 

[ultrarunner]

It wasn't that long ago toilet paper was a luxury... still remember when US travelers would pack toilet paper.

Also the days of newspaper or catalog pages is not all that far back in rural areas.

Working in medical I see how toilet paper is treated... many elderly are very sparing... even down to the number of squares... younger people not so much and I have seen kids use an entire role and try to flush.

Had a septic for 25 years in Austria... never an issue except when young American College kids would visit... never failed the toilet would be stuffed and would have to make a quick "Run" to pick up more.

In 26 years I have never had a clogged toilet in the Men's lobby restroom... Women's is about once ever other week... go figure?

 

[JRobyn]

It is my opinion that many folks are way obsessive with their septic "usage". Not flushing TP? Really? If you're that concerned about "excess" solids, have it pumped a little more frequently. But then I acknowledge that for every overly obsessive septic user, there are probably 5 that don't give it a thought and abuse it.

We have a 2-chamber 1000g concrete tank and about 250 ft of leach line in soil that drains just ok (rock layer under it). Due to medical issues, we frequently use the ghastly, horrid "flushable" wipes, maybe 50 per month, and we occasionally put a small amount of food waste down through our disposal. No lint filter. I don't worry about what kind of laundry products we use. After about 4-5 years of use by the two of us, we had it pumped and its condition was just fine - normal scum layer and normal or less amount of solids. Maybe we just have super-good biologic "digestion" going on in our tank? Isn't a normally functioning septic system SUPPOSED to break down and biodegrade stuff?

 

[ultrarunner]

I don't think textiles break down easily... 1600's Jamestown settlement excavation is still turning up textiles from 400 years ago.

Many that are cautious do so because to replace would require just about a full blown sewage treatment plant... pumps, electricity, professional inspections/ongoing engineering contracts...

Those where none of this is required can be more cavalier... just send the effluent in a new direction/leach field...

 

[Pettrix]

Isn't a normally functioning septic system SUPPOSED to break down and biodegrade stuff?

Toilet Paper is probably the hardest thing to break down in the tank. Anaerobic systems have bacteria that eats the waste (poop and toilet paper) but it is a very slow, very smelly (methane is the by-product) process.

An Aerobic system introduces OXYGEN into the tank and this creates a digestion process by the bacteria that is 10x faster and more productive. In addition, it doesn't have the same smelly by-product of methane gas. The oxygen also stirs up the solids and breaks them apart making them easier to digest for the bacteria.

If you open the lid to an aerobic septic tank, there is very little to no smell. The same cannot be said for anaerobic. The methane gas is bad and can kill you.

Anyone who owns a pond, large fish tank, knows the benefits of adding oxygen into the water supply. It helps tremendously in the cleanliness and health of the system.

The same thing applies with septic systems. Changing the septic from anaerobic to aerobic makes a big difference.

SludgeHammer latest advance in septic wastewater treatment

There are other aerobic systems out there. Sludgehammer is expensive ($2k) but there are less expensive ones. Not as good but still better than nothing.

 

[ultrarunner]

The residential unit would cost about $350 annually to power... which is $3500 over 10 years based on current rate of around 30 cents kW.

This is in addition to cost of purchase, installation and maintenance.

 

[teejk]

In NC, the septic system is sized by the number of bedrooms with the assumption that each bedroom holds two people. We have a three bedroom house with a study than can be turned into a bedroom. Per code we could have just put in a septic system for three bedrooms but that would have been short sighted so we have a four bedroom system. I did not bother to get quotes for a three vs four bedroom system because the cost would have been minimal.

But how many houses these days have two people per bedroom? Danged few. So our septic system is sized to handle eight people and we have four in the house. I think most of the new construction is going to have systems that are well over capacity than actual usage.

Best I can tell our water usage is about 50 GPPPD. We have low flow toilet and shower heads. The dishwasher and clothes washer uses very little water, something like 10 gallons per load. We spent two weeks on a boat this summer and I was filling up the fresh water tanks. Doing the math it looked like we were using about 20 GPPPD. We did some laundry and the boat used fresh water to flush toilets. We would have used less water if the shower heads were a bit more restricted.

Later,
Dan

When I built here I questioned the septic people about the possibility of "over-sizing". They assured me that it can't happen with a 3 BR system vs. a 4BR system because what they call "bugs" (bacteria) will multiply. The incremental cost made it a "no-brainer"...nobody will have to worry about it if this house gets sold. I've been burned too many times on houses I've bought where the # of BR's somehow shrunk from when I bought it to when I tried to sell it (real estate agents technically represent the seller so as a buyer you are really on your own). I paid the cost for a 4 BR system which is baked into the permit cost and in the cost of the septic system and is all a matter of public record on the county records.

 

[ultrarunner]

The county records for my home state 1200 gallon 3-4 bedroom gravity, deep trench.

My home has "5" bedrooms with one being called a nursery...

At least this is how they did it in 1977

Most have never seen an official record for bedrooms hyphenated...

 

[teejk]

It wasn't that long ago toilet paper was a luxury... still remember when US travelers would pack toilet paper.

Also the days of newspaper or catalog pages is not all that far back in rural areas.

Working in medical I see how toilet paper is treated... many elderly are very sparing... even down to the number of squares... younger people not so much and I have seen kids use an entire role and try to flush.

Had a septic for 25 years in Austria... never an issue except when young American College kids would visit... never failed the toilet would be stuffed and would have to make a quick "Run" to pick up more.

In 26 years I have never had a clogged toilet in the Men's lobby restroom... Women's is about once ever other week... go figure?

Interesting...was in SD a month ago and a retired railroad guy showed me a big piece of cast iron with a straight tube but had a spring loaded seat that activated a water valve if compressed. We concluded that it was used on RR cars and everything got "dumped" between the rails. A simple "pee" was no problem (straight down). Other than that if you used the seat the valve would open and flush whatever (still between the rails).

 

[teejk]

The county records for my home state 1200 gallon 3-4 bedroom gravity, deep trench.

My home has "5" bedrooms with one being called a nursery...

At least this is how they did it in 1977

Most have never seen an official record for bedrooms hyphenated...

Den/nursery/study...whatever...all ways to save a few $ on the initial build but also to save more on the property taxes going forward (according to your assessor your 5 BR house will probably be worth much more than the exact same house showing 3-4 BR). If you plan to live there forever then you win. If not then be prepared for bad news when you try to sell.

 

[ultrarunner]

Hard to imagine the Assessor hitting me harder.... I now pay over a $1,000 a month to property tax.

After I bought the tax was $6800 and then Washington tossed out I-747 and tax went to 12K ... it was very sobering.

Not sure if I can afford it forever... home was rented for $1800 for years and just recently at $2500.

I'm very careful with the septic... have it pumped between tenancies... amazing how clean or how bad depending on who lived there.

 

[Wagtail]

Interesting...was in SD a month ago and a retired railroad guy showed me a big piece of cast iron with a straight tube but had a spring loaded seat that activated a water valve if compressed. We concluded that it was used on RR cars and everything got "dumped" between the rails. A simple "pee" was no problem (straight down). Other than that if you used the seat the valve would open and flush whatever (still between the rails).

I'll simply leave this here...

Oscar Brand - Humoresque (Passengers Will Please Refrain) lyrics

 

[teejk]

Hard to imagine the Assessor hitting me harder.... I now pay over a $1,000 a month to property tax.

After I bought the tax was $6800 and then Washington tossed out I-747 and tax went to 12K ... it was very sobering.

Not sure if I can afford it forever... home was rented for $1800 for years and just recently at $2500.

I'm very careful with the septic... have it pumped between tenancies... amazing how clean or how bad depending on who lived there.

You live in WA so you don't have an income tax. All these people need to get some $$$ somehow to fund their "projects". I lived in NY for years and got "violated" with every possible tax they could imagine (income, property, tobacco. alcohol, sales, vehicle inspection/license fees, etc.). Then I moved back to my home state of Wisconsin...same thing only a bit less...

 

[ultrarunner]

I actually live in California the land of just about every imaginable tax...

No personal income tax is great for those with income... high property tax can and does force people out of their homes.

My objection is an 80% tax increase over my purchase price 18 months prior... it really put a hold on my long term plans.

Septic is a big issue in both California and Washington... many existing are now non-conforming so where does that leave homeowners?

 

[Pettrix]

The residential unit would cost about $350 annually to power... which is $3500 over 10 years based on current rate of around 30 cents kW.

This is in addition to cost of purchase, installation and maintenance.

Wow, 30 cents per kWh is high. Out here it is about 13 cents. Out here that pump running 24/7/365 would be around $70 per year or $700 for the course of 10 years.

Aerobic systems also require less frequent pumping. Maybe every 4-5 years depending on use/size. To pump a tank out here is about $500 once all fees are paid. So the aerobic system easily pays for itself in less pumping fees.

 

[CalG]

Strange, that some systems need such frequent attention. I had the tank "pumped" after the first year we were in that's been just shy of 30 years. The service tech said "it didn't need it", but I wanted to see what the tank capacity and condition was. About 15 years ago, I pulled the tank lid and stirred the contents with a wooden pole to asses any accumulation of solids. There could not have been more than 3-4 inches of sediment. I've done nothing at the tank since.

So, 30 years with no required pumping . No expense , and it all seems to be working perfectly. 'Fortunate I guess.

Again, this is a minimal cost, sediment tank piped to a block dry well out to a single 50 foot run of perf pipe via a syphon loop. Family of five, the kids from babies, and it's just us two now.

Yep, fortunate! In a lot of ways.

 

[PILOON]

"Aerobic systems also require less frequent pumping. Maybe every 4-5 years depending on use/size. To pump a tank out here is about $500 once all fees are paid. So the aerobic system easily pays for itself in less pumping fees. "

That's all fine except here , by municipal law we MUST pump every 2 years.
The municipality has an environment dept, staff is now up to 3 and growing. They keep records and you get nasty reminders plus the fines are heavy. It is all about preserving the environment.
They even have electric cars but don't use them as the range is not sufficient.
Last I heard they want to pass an environment tax and suggested it would be about $30.00/yr/household.

Hey I know for a fact of 2 households that have not flushed as much as 1 qt of water in 4 years but still have to pump or pay the fines.
Cut one tree near the waterfront and expect to get a fine. (even if the tree is dead. Argument is birds like to nest in dead trees.)
Interesting to observe that many bylaws apply only to the taxpayers and not to the city, it is the old 'do as I say and not as I do'.