So I got a good deal on some trusses...

[fractal]

</font><font color="blue" class="small">( My electrical knowledge is basic at best. After searching around on TBN for some enlightenment, I concluded a 125A 24-space subpanel w/ separate neutral bar was a good choice. I found this GE panel and (4) 20A breaker package for $32 and the 24 terminal bar was $4. I know in the near future I will have a welder and it seems like this should be sufficient. Yes? )</font>

It will probably handle a garage pretty well. It might not handle a shop. A couple of things you may not realize from the way your wrote the description.

- It only has places for 12 single-pole breakers. This will support 24 circuits but you only have 12 slots.

- A 220v circuit, such as needed for a welder or large air compressor or other similar power tool takes 2 slots which is 4 of your circuits.

- GE does not make a dual 220v breaker. And, even though many of the murray / siemens breakes fit a GE box, the murray / siemens dual 220 does not.

So, the 24 circuit (you called 24 slot but it is not) box you showed will hold 12 of the standard 5 dollar single pole breakers such as are included in the kit. Or, it will hold 6 of the standard inexpensive double pole 220v breakers. Yes, you can get 24 circuits in it as long as they are all 120v and you use the more expensive 1/2 inch breakers or duals. Your capacity drops significantly if you need any 220v circuits. This may not be a problem for you (probably won't be a problem from what I have read you say), but if it is, you may wish to consider siemens / murray or square D who DO support dual 220v breakers.

I would plan it out using the cheap 1 inch breakers and see if I have any slots left over. If so, that would give a fair growth path by allowing you to switch to duals if needed. The only thing that may cause some head scratching is if you need more than a couple of 220v circuits as those chew up slots fast.

 

[dholly]

</font><font color="blue" class="small">( GE does not make a dual 220v breaker. And, even though many of the murray / siemens breakes fit a GE box, the murray / siemens dual 220 does not.

I would plan it out using the cheap 1 inch breakers and see if I have any slots left over. If so, that would give a fair growth path by allowing you to switch to duals if needed. The only thing that may cause some head scratching is if you need more than a couple of 220v circuits as those chew up slots fast. )</font>

I did look at the other panel boxes at 2x the price but didn't think I would need the space. But I didn't know a dual 220v breaker wouldn't work in the GE panel, but don't think it will be a problem. Here's what I was thinking, please tell me if I'm not doing something correctly. And, by all means, make suggestions if there's a better way!

- 220v welder uses (2) 1" panel spaces and (4) circuits
- (2) overhead lighting zones uses (2) 1" panel spaces and (2) circuits
- (2) overhead quad receptacles for garage door opener(s) and (2) overhead, retractable power cord reel/lights uses (1) 1" panel space and (1) circuit
- exterior lighting fixtures uses (1) 1" panel space and (1) circuit
- (4) wall receptacle zones uses (4) 1" panel space and (4) circuits

If I did that correctly it is a full panel of 1" breakers but, like you say, I could always change a couple out to mini breakers later if I needed extra room down the road. I don't envision a shop full of 220v tools so I expect the one 220v circuit should be fine.

 

[JimMorrissey]

dh,

That goo is to keep water from infiltrating the sheath....It's part of industrial grade optical wire that's made for ground contact too and multiple other type of wire I suppose. Conduits fill with water sometimes and it's good for that too. Messy to work with.

 

[JimMorrissey]

dh...sounds to me like you are running on the edge there. I'd reconsider the panel so you have room in the future. You're going to be kicking yourself when the panel is packed and need a few more circuits. I know there are budgets and limits, but you're investing in this great shop that will rely on electricity to operate. I think it's worth the extra $200 bucks or whatever to be able to do what you want in the future. Some day if you move it will likey pay for itself in resale if nothing else. What if you want to convert it to some other use in the future....apt or guest house?

What you have will work, but I'd say you want some breathing room. Look in the local paper under "building materials" or on Ebay for a better deal on one somebody is looking to get rid of.

 

[EddieWalker]

I'm a little confused and started wondering if you are overthinking the panel.

Run your 240 volt line for your welder. Probably 30 amps, but it could be more depending on what you have. Size the wire for 40 amps and you will be fine.

Devide the room in half with each side having it's own line. I rarely have more then one tool running at a time and like 20 amp breakers with 12/2 romex. I only use double boxes for my outlets. Walmart is usually the cheapest on outlet boxes.

The garaged door opener is just another outlet. Add it to either side of your outlets.

I put the overhead lights on another line. 15 amps is plenty for that. I also prefer the 8 foot florecent lights for general lighting.

Over the workbench and other work areas, like an assembly table or wash basin, I add another light. Power it from you outlet run with a light switch for convienence.

I've heard the argument to put the lights on seperate runs in case you trip a circut on them while operating a power tool at night, which allows you to still see from the remaining lights. To me, this isn't a concern. Lights draw such small current with no load that blowing a circut is just about a non issue. As long as they are on a dedicated line, then you should never have a problem.

My exterior lights come off my outlet run. One big sodium light, or mercury vapor, or whatever you prefer will be in front. Side secrurity lights are nice for walking around the building at night and they turn on by themselves.

That's one 30 to 40 amp 240 breaker for the welder, two 20 amp 120 volt breakers for the outlets and one 15 amp 120 breaker for the lights.

Keep it simple,
Eddie

 

[dholly]

Jim - thanks, but the odds that this building will be used for anything other than a 2nd garage and residential shop are slim unless my wife banishes me to the garage! Frankly, I thought the above layout was a bit of overkill for my needs. Perhaps ignorance is bliss but, since I don't see the benefit/need to put everything on it's own circuit, I am gravitating to a simpler layout like Eddie suggests. That should still leave me 2 to 4 full spaces for future expansion, more with mini breakers.

khd - your comment about the cable TV ghosting hit home. Never had this problem before, but I do have a cable amplifier in the new house. As luck would have it, there is one line out left to send to the garage. Will be about a 95' run I guess. Is that long? Here's a pic, no clue who makes it.

 

[dholly]

When looking at the cable amplifier, I realized what a spaghetti mess I have in the house. Main cable goes to a splitter, then one side to the home office for a dedicated high speed internet access, the other to a 3-way splitter. Two line outs go to exercise room and kitchen tv, the third to the amplifier. The amp line outs feed the family room, master bedroom and basement rec room. We have elected not to connect the CATV outlets in the kid's bedrooms. /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif

 

[Farwell]

Eddie,
I usually add a small sub panel if I need a few more circuits. I also use Seimens or Murray boxes and breakers because of the double breakers. Another thing I have learned is to pay the money and get the 20 amp receptacles where you can slide the wire in the back and tighten a screw and hold the wires in place. They are so much easier to work with and you don't have to cram the wiring back in the box causing possible shorts. Another thing I have done is get a 50 AMP ground fault breaker and run it to a small sub panel for all of my wall receptacles except for where I put welding plugs.
I think I am covered if my compressor comes on when I am welding. These things are the only high current drain items that can be on at the same time under my control unless the dryer is on in the house along with the oven, washing machine, air conditioner, and numerous other small appliances. Think I am going to add a 200 AMP box at the house and split a clean 100 AMP to the pole barn just to be safe.

 

[Farwell]

dh,
Radio Shlock sells an amplifier similar to the one in the photo.
I have a tendency to way over do my electrical hook up stuff because I like to do it and I like to be able to do anything I want to do when I want to do it. Your requirements sound like you have what you need to do what you need as well as covering a little expansion if you need it in the future.
Under ground conduit may have moisture in it due to temperature differential between the ground and warmth inside of the conduit. I ran some #2 wire under ground in plastic conduit and found out that the wire was about 10 feet to short for what I wanted to do so I pulled the wire to replace it with longer wire and found that it was very wet. The conduit and wire were dry and had no access to water when installed and sealed. The only other possibilitythat I can think of could be that the conduit with wire inside of it sat for a couple of days in the hot sun prior to burial causing moisture to form inside of it.

 

[dholly]

Farwell - seems like anything I ever put in conduit ends up wet, I don't know why either but water finds it's way into the smallest of holes it seems. I thought about using up some switches/receptacles leftover from my recent cabin renovation project (pic), but decided to use industrial electrical components. Thanks for the 20a receptacle tip.