Stump Grapple

[Poopdeck Pappy]

Ok, so you're probably saying "Another grapple thread?!?!"

Well, I have a specific need for a grapple to remove cedar trees. I want something to do some digging around the roots to loosen them up so I can then push them over and haul them off. So, unlike a typical grapple user, I will need to dig a little with mine.

I figured that instead of trying to push a typical 50" or 60" grapple in the ground, something like the one in the link below might work better. Anybody have any experience with this one or something like it?

Skid Steer Stump Grapple

ETA has something similar but it weighs 978 pounds and costs almost $2,700. http://www.everythingattachments.com/Construction-Attachments-Stump-Grapple-Bucket-p/cal-grapple-wickstumpsxd.htm The one linked above from Unlimited Fabrication costs about 1/2 of that delivered to my door.

 

[Poopdeck Pappy]

Oh, and this grapple will be used on a Kioti DK50SE HST, which I just ordered today. :cool2:

 

[k0ua]

How big are the biggest of these cedar stumps you are wanting to dig out?. And are they stumps at this time or are they still trees? And if still trees, high high are they and how big around at the base? I have some reservations about how successful you are going to be digging out large stumps. It takes a lot of weight and hydraulic power to just scoop out stumps. More than you would think. Of course the type of ground these are set in will make a difference too. I am not trying to "pee" on your idea, but I would hate to see you spend a lot of money and be disappointed. I don't know how much tractor experience you have, and how many trees you have taken out. I have taken out quite a few cedars in particular.

Wicked Stump Grapple Vs. Two Headed Monster Stump - YouTube

 

[Poopdeck Pappy]

My cedars are still trees. The bigger ones are up to 10" - 12" at the base and 15' - 20' tall. I'd say the average size is 6" or so and 12' - 15' tall. The roots are fairly shallow and they push over pretty easy once the roots are dug up somewhat. The soil is tight black clayish soil.

I've been taking them out so far with a borrowed skid steer, but it has no teeth on the bucket so it's been slow trying to dig up the roots enough to push them over.

I've been debating on buying a backhoe or a separate machine with a backhoe, which I could sell after I get all the tree removal done in a year or two. This is a long term project for me. I'm not in a huge hurry. I think the stump bucket would work ok, although perhaps a lot slower than a backhoe. I just don't want to tear up the FEL on my new tractor.

I have a lot of tractor experience, but that was 40 years ago on the family farm with old row crop and grain crop equipment. (We grew wheat, cotton, milo, etc. on about 2,500 acres).

 

[k0ua]

My cedars are still trees. The bigger ones are up to 10" - 12" at the base and 15' - 20' tall. I'd say the average size is 6" or so and 12' - 15' tall. The roots are fairly shallow and they push over pretty easy once the roots are dug up somewhat. The soil is tight black clayish soil.

I've been taking them out so far with a borrowed skid steer, but it has no teeth on the bucket so it's been slow trying to dig up the roots enough to push them over.

I've been debating on buying a backhoe or a separate machine with a backhoe, which I could sell after I get all the tree removal done in a year or two. This is a long term project for me. I'm not in a huge hurry. I think the stump bucket would work ok, although perhaps a lot slower than a backhoe. I just don't want to tear up the FEL on my new tractor.

I have a lot of tractor experience, but that was 40 years ago on the family farm with old row crop and grain crop equipment. (We grew wheat, cotton, milo, etc. on about 2,500 acres).

Well around here I can push over the 6 inchers with the tractor, or what I usually do is get at least 2 log chains together, and wait for a rain. Then about 2 or 3 days after the rain the top soil is firm enough to operate your tractor on without fear. Then get the log chains together to get enough length so there is no danger of the tree falling on you, and put the chain up 7 foot on the trunk and pull them right over. The soil is still damp and soft at the root level and most of them up to 10 inches just give up easy. Then grapple them to stack them or cut them up. I think your stump bucket will work for trees that size on your tractor, but chains don't cost much. Of course I pull from the fixed drawbar well below the axle and I always ease into the tree with the hydrostat. NO JERKING. If the tree won't pull, I will try a different direction. Then if it wont pull, well it is time to start to dig some roots. But most of the trees of that size I have tried, have pulled over easily as long as the soil is damp. You have a lot of leverage on the tree with the chain up high on the trunk, and the soil on top of the ground is perfect for maximum traction. I bet this technique would work for you too.

James K0UA

 

[rmorey]

I agree with James. It would be a shame to spend $1,208 plus shipping for an attachment that doesnt do what you want. Give his technique a try before you order.

We have Eastern White Cedar here, they can grow to 18" dia. and 60' long. I usually dig 'em out with the hoe, as pushing/pulling them over is out of the question.

Another option is to buy the hoe and sell it when you're done in a couple of years for 60% - 75% of what you paid for it. :thumbsup:

 

[Poopdeck Pappy]

James' log chain method might work on mine too. But I have hundreds of cedars to remove and it would be a tedious process. I'm in no particular hurry on this, but I'm not sure I'm THAT patient.

I can push the 6 inchers over with the skid steer (and I assume the FEL on the tractor will do just as well), but the soil is like concrete and some of them want to break and splinter the trunk of the tree instead of coming up roots and all. If I can loosen up the roots with the bucket, I can then push the tree over without breaking the trunk. THAT's where I think the stump grapple will earn it's keep.

Once pushed over, the cedars aren't very heavy so I think that stump grapple will work ok to grapple them and carry them to a burn pile. I know a wider grapple would provide more stability for carrying long heavy logs, but it should work ok for the cedars.

At this point I'm about 50/50 on whether to try the stump grapple or just go the safe (and expensive) route and buy a backhoe. I've got a line on a used backhoe I could buy and use for a year or two and probably not lose my shirt when I resell it.

 

[rmorey]

I think the grapple will work fine, its the digging I'm wondering about. :confused3: But it sure is a mean lookin' beast. :thumbsup:

 

[k0ua]

James' log chain method might work on mine too. But I have hundreds of cedars to remove and it would be a tedious process. I'm in no particular hurry on this, but I'm not sure I'm THAT patient.

I can push the 6 inchers over with the skid steer (and I assume the FEL on the tractor will do just as well), but the soil is like concrete and some of them want to break and splinter the trunk of the tree instead of coming up roots and all. If I can loosen up the roots with the bucket, I can then push the tree over without breaking the trunk. THAT's where I think the stump grapple will earn it's keep.

Once pushed over, the cedars aren't very heavy so I think that stump grapple will work ok to grapple them and carry them to a burn pile. I know a wider grapple would provide more stability for carrying long heavy logs, but it should work ok for the cedars.

At this point I'm about 50/50 on whether to try the stump grapple or just go the safe (and expensive) route and buy a backhoe. I've got a line on a used backhoe I could buy and use for a year or two and probably not lose my shirt when I resell it.

Yeah one thing, down where you live, "waiting on a rain" could be a while:shocked:. And the log chain method of course works best with 2 people, and wears the heck out of the "groundman".. you have to trade off jobs, riding the tractor or dragging log chain all day. And the guy on the tractor needs a rear view mirror, as it puts a crick in your neck watching the progress of the ground man. So for 100's of trees.. yeah, it would be a pita.. but if you could find a wet time, you could probably push over the majority of them with a grapple and haul them off. I just don't know how well that stump bucket will work on the DK50 with the KL401.. If you get it, I sure would like to know how well it works. The backhoe is a sure thing, but of course it will cost some money.

James K0UA

 

[whis]

tractor loader won't be near as strong as skidsteer, that grapple would work best on skidsteer

 

[eth555]

I have the wicked stump grapple, I use it on my skid steer. Smaller trees it will pop right out, bigger trees take some digging but works. Neighbor used it on their skid steer to clear 80 acres of 30 year old minimally maintained CRP ground; they took out some really good sized trees with it. It is built extremely stout; everyone who has looked at it, is impressed with the heavy build of it. The only issue both I and my neighbor have had has been pinching hydraulic hoses if you are not careful. I have replaced both of them now, more of an operator error, I have since been routing them differently on my skid steer and zip tieing them so they do not get into pinch points. I used mine to dig a trench about 110' long about a foot deep; work well enough for what we needed. I purchased mine through my local dealer, not through the website. There are a couple of YouTube videos on it also.

Wicked Stump Grapple Vs. Two Headed Monster Stump - YouTube

CA Wicked Stump Grapple - YouTube

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n-tXas5RgxI

 

[Sysop]

tractor loader won't be near as strong as skidsteer, that grapple would work best on skidsteer

+1


Manuals for tractor FELs always warn and state they're not for digging and dozing, that care should be used on how much is pushed with them as their intended use is scooping and lifting lose materials. In my research, most of the reasons I've found stated are the overall geometry of the systems aren't designed for it, and bushings aren't rated high enough for the loads incurred by digging and dozing (they're made to take the pressures of lifting a couple thousand pounds, not having a 3000-6000 pound tractor pushing on it to the limits of it's traction). But from what I've seen of most people's experiences, where the loader mounts to the tractor tends to be one of the most common trouble-spots. Many people overlook tightening the loader mount bolts often enough.

Another good many people overlook inspecting how a loader is mounted to the tractor when purchasing as well. The mounts for the various loaders have a lot to do with how well they're going to perform outside of the uses the manufacturers intended for them. Some FELs just mount to a small area of the frame between the axles, some have entire subframe assemblies that mount to the frame in the middle as well as reach back and attach to the rear axle, some have even larger subframes that tie in farther in the front as well. If your FEL advises against digging and just has a small mount to the frame between the axles, I would heed their advice. If your FEL has a full subframe tied into the tractor frame and rear axle, you can likely/more-safely ignore their advice to a point. No FEL will have the strength of a skid steer for plowing into earth, roots, and stumps with much force.

What trees I've came across I couldn't push over easily, I've pulled over in similar fashion to what's been described by others in this thread. The couple I've came across I've not been able to push or pull (12" to 15" and up), were easily pushed over after using the backhoe to simply stab and pry some all around the stump to break and cut some of the root system, with MUCH less damage to the surrounding earth than is shown in those videos with that stump grapple. Anything larger than 18" is generally cut to a 3 or 4 foot tall stump, then backhoed and pulled. Biggest hole I've made to take a tree out has been about 20" around the stump. In that video it looks like he starts digging 3 or more feet out from what I consider to be a somewhat small stump.

 

[IslandTractor]

I'd use a regular 48" root grapple myself rather than a grapple bucket. The key to knocking over those 20ft cedars will be to rip through the supporting lateral roots and then you can push the whole tree over. No need to dig the stump out as it will pop out by itself when the tree goes over. Ideal tool for this job is a BH with ripper but a narrow simple root grapple (see my avatar photo) will also do the job. I've used it on cedars and they are relatively easy though my experience is more with 12ft specimens. The key again is to rip the lateral roots on all sides a few feet from the trunk and then put the loader/grapple at about 8-10ft high on the trunk and just push. Once you get the tree tipped a bit you can either keep pushing or back off, put the grapple down under the rootball and lift/push at the same time. Sometimes you will need to push from another direction 90 degrees off but without lateral roots that cedar will come down pretty easily. A stump bucket could do the same thing as the root rake but there is no benefit to tearing up more ground and it would be better to put a single 3/8' steel tine on a root to rip it rather than spread the force over the one foot width of the bucket tip. Same loader power but 10x concentrated force on that single spot is what will cause it to rip.

 

[IslandTractor]

+1


Manuals for tractor FELs always warn and state they're not for digging and dozing, that care should be used on how much is pushed with them as their intended use is scooping and lifting lose materials. In my research, most of the reasons I've found stated are the overall geometry of the systems aren't designed for it, and bushings aren't rated high enough for the loads incurred by digging and dozing (they're made to take the pressures of lifting a couple thousand pounds, not having a 3000-6000 pound tractor pushing on it to the limits of it's traction). But from what I've seen of most people's experiences, where the loader mounts to the tractor tends to be one of the most common trouble-spots. Many people overlook tightening the loader mount bolts often enough.

Another good many people overlook inspecting how a loader is mounted to the tractor when purchasing as well. The mounts for the various loaders have a lot to do with how well they're going to perform outside of the uses the manufacturers intended for them. Some FELs just mount to a small area of the frame between the axles, some have entire subframe assemblies that mount to the frame in the middle as well as reach back and attach to the rear axle, some have even larger subframes that tie in farther in the front as well. If your FEL advises against digging and just has a small mount to the frame between the axles, I would heed their advice. If your FEL has a full subframe tied into the tractor frame and rear axle, you can likely/more-safely ignore their advice to a point. No FEL will have the strength of a skid steer for plowing into earth, roots, and stumps with much force.

What trees I've came across I couldn't push over easily, I've pulled over in similar fashion to what's been described by others in this thread. The couple I've came across I've not been able to push or pull (12" to 15" and up), were easily pushed over after using the backhoe to simply stab and pry some all around the stump to break and cut some of the root system, with MUCH less damage to the surrounding earth than is shown in those videos with that stump grapple. Anything larger than 18" is generally cut to a 3 or 4 foot tall stump, then backhoed and pulled. Biggest hole I've made to take a tree out has been about 20" around the stump. In that video it looks like he starts digging 3 or more feet out from what I consider to be a somewhat small stump.

Your point is well taken. Certainly FELs on CUTs are primarily designed for loading but within reason they can be safely used to dig and push. What you don't want to do is lower the bucket and charge into the woods as you could do with a bulldozer. However, if you line up an object in centerline and apply force gradually (rather than shocking but ramming something while moving), then tractor FELs seem to do fine. The Kioti KL401 loader the the OP will use is very capable and strong and I don't recall any complaints from TBN users that they had damaged their KL401 over the past 5 years or so that it has been available. I use mine pretty aggressively with a root grapple and haven't had any issues (but I obey the rules I just set out). Make contact with the object first at slow speed then lift or push and you are OK.

 

[k0ua]

Your point is well taken. Certainly FELs on CUTs are primarily designed for loading but within reason they can be safely used to dig and push. What you don't want to do is lower the bucket and charge into the woods as you could do with a bulldozer. However, if you line up an object in centerline and apply force gradually (rather than shocking but ramming something while moving), then tractor FELs seem to do fine. The Kioti KL401 loader the the OP will use is very capable and strong and I don't recall any complaints from TBN users that they had damaged their KL401 over the past 5 years or so that it has been available. I use mine pretty aggressively with a root grapple and haven't had any issues (but I obey the rules I just set out). Make contact with the object first at slow speed then lift or push and you are OK.

The Hydrostatic transmission is a big help with applying increasing power over a period of time. If you attempt to do the same with a clutch equipped tractor, you will put a lot of wear on the clutch facing. This is one of the reasons I am such a "hydro fanboy". One of many.

James K0UA

 

[Sysop]

Your point is well taken. Certainly FELs on CUTs are primarily designed for loading but within reason they can be safely used to dig and push. What you don't want to do is lower the bucket and charge into the woods as you could do with a bulldozer. However, if you line up an object in centerline and apply force gradually (rather than shocking but ramming something while moving), then tractor FELs seem to do fine. The Kioti KL401 loader the the OP will use is very capable and strong and I don't recall any complaints from TBN users that they had damaged their KL401 over the past 5 years or so that it has been available. I use mine pretty aggressively with a root grapple and haven't had any issues (but I obey the rules I just set out). Make contact with the object first at slow speed then lift or push and you are OK.

Agreed, FELs do a dandy job of damage free digging with a proper operator in the seat. My comments were based primarily on the video and how they were using the stump grapple. Ramming as they were with a skid steer is one thing, but the average tractor FEL under those same conditions I'd consider it "abuse".

The Hydrostatic transmission is a big help with applying increasing power over a period of time. If you attempt to do the same with a clutch equipped tractor, you will put a lot of wear on the clutch facing. This is one of the reasons I am such a "hydro fanboy". One of many.

James K0UA

+1

 

[IslandTractor]

Agreed, FELs do a dandy job of damage free digging with a proper operator in the seat. My comments were based primarily on the video and how they were using the stump grapple. Ramming as they were with a skid steer is one thing, but the average tractor FEL under those same conditions I'd consider it "abuse".

+1

Yes, the physics says if you want to ram something make the FEL arms short, stout and in line with what you are pushing. Sounds like a bulldozer to me. Skid steer would be second best. Tractor FEL with long thin arms designed to load manure and hay into wagons would be a distant third.

 

[Poopdeck Pappy]

. . . The key to knocking over those 20ft cedars will be to rip through the supporting lateral roots and then you can push the whole tree over. No need to dig the stump out as it will pop out by itself when the tree goes over. . . .

That's EXACTLY what I want to do. I.e., cut those lateral roots and then push the whole thing over. My plan was not to dig the whole stump out. I just thought the stump bucket, being much narrower than a typical grapple, would be easier to do a little root surgery.

. . . A stump bucket could do the same thing as the root rake but there is no benefit to tearing up more ground and it would be better to put a single 3/8' steel tine on a root to rip it rather than spread the force over the one foot width of the bucket tip. Same loader power but 10x concentrated force on that single spot is what will cause it to rip.

Pardon me for being dense, but how would you put a single tine on a root? Again, my thought process (which could be faulty, I admit), was that it would be easier on the tractor and loader to gently push the narrower stump bucket in the ground than 5 to 8 grapple tines spread across a 48" or wider area. The stump bucket is 15" wide at the front with 3 teeth mounted on a cutting edge.

Trust me - I'm not trying to be argumentative. I'm trying to learn as much as possible so I can make the best decision. And I appreciate all the input from people like you who have hands-on experience.

 

[IslandTractor]

That's EXACTLY what I want to do. I.e., cut those lateral roots and then push the whole thing over. My plan was not to dig the whole stump out. I just thought the stump bucket, being much narrower than a typical grapple, would be easier to do a little root surgery.

Pardon me for being dense, but how would you put a single tine on a root? Again, my thought process (which could be faulty, I admit), was that it would be easier on the tractor and loader to gently push the narrower stump bucket in the ground than 5 to 8 grapple tines spread across a 48" or wider area. The stump bucket is 15" wide at the front with 3 teeth mounted on a cutting edge.

Trust me - I'm not trying to be argumentative. I'm trying to learn as much as possible so I can make the best decision. And I appreciate all the input from people like you who have hands-on experience.

You are right that even a 48" grapple will tear up more than a single root at a time but usually, five or six 3/8" tines on a narrow grapple will make knife like slices through turf rather than shovel full at a time disruptions of the soil when trying to locate the hidden roots. Once you find the root and raise it up a bit, it isn't hard to manipulate the grapple tines so you do little extra damage to turf. To be fair, the ideal device would have a single narrow tooth about 18-24" long rather than half a dozen 8" long grapple tine tips, so a root grapple is not perfect. I would chose the grapple as the more versatile compromise however. The stump bucket is more popular as a skid steer implement as it has some advantages in demolition and as a single tool to plant new bushes as well as remove old ones.

I have used my grapple to do what you are planning. If however I had hundreds of cedars to remove, I would use a BH with ripper or just make a purpose built single ripper grapple device. Probably not that hard to fabricate starting with a SSQA plate and just welding a ripper tooth to the front. Then either add an upper grapple arm/thumb or just mount some chain hooks to give you a way to move the trees.

 

[CJONE]

Pappy I regularly push out 6-10" hardwood trees with my 48" grapple and have doug out a couple of 12-16" maples with the grapple. I pushed out a 16" basswood the other day, needless to say I was surprised and impressed by this little tractor. I never ram and cram while doing this, always use the hydraulics and leverage of the machine. I have over 350 hours on it and most has been using the loader to capacity. I check the mount bolts and keep everything greased and have had no problems. I would get the narrowest grapple and use common sence and you should be fine. Island Tractors comment about a Ripper attachment for the SSQA is my next project because I am always removing trees. CJ