Submersible pump in shallow well?

[quicksandfarmer]

I have a shallow well I use for livestock, it's not potable water. It's only about 10 feet deep. A previous owner built a small (about 4'x4'x4') well house over it and it has a shallow well pump with expansion tank and pressure switch in the well house. The well house is not well built and can get below freezing in the winter, so I disconnect the pump at the start of the winter. All of my piping is buried, and I have frost-free hydrants, so I would like to be able to use my water during the winter.

Frost line here is about 36". The water level in my well varies with the seasons, right now we're having a drought and there's only about two feet of water in the well, but in the spring it comes higher than the frost line. So it seems to me that if I want to frost-proof my pump by putting it below the frost line it has to be submersible. (The other option would be to better insulate my well house, but I think I would have to tear it down and start over.) So I'm thinking about replacing my pump with a submersible one. It seems there are two types of pumps: sump pumps, and deep well pumps. The sump pumps I've looked at can't create a whole lot of head, I'm getting 35 PSI from my current pump which is just marginal and sump pumps seem to be designed for about a 10 foot lift, which is about 5 PSI. A deep well pump seems ideal -- it's meant for this application, and the pipe leaving my well is about 4' underground so the whole thing would be below frostline -- but I wonder if I have enough water for it to work. Will a deep well pump work in the summer when there's only a couple feet of water?

If the pump is submerged, I still have to deal with the tank and switch. Any ideas for making those weatherproof? Would it harm a tank to submerge it, isn't it waterproof on the outside? One thought that's forming is that in the winter, I can't leave anything hooked up to the frost-free hydrants anyway, and I can't leave the water on. So the pump only needs to be on when I have a hydrant open, so I don't really need a pressure tank or switch -- I just open a hydrant and turn the switch on. I'm thinking I could have a shutoff valve below frostline, along with a union connecting the tank and switch, and just disconnect and drain them when I go into winter mode.

Any thoughts?

Thanks.

 

[FredH]

1 question I can answer is the use without a tank . Yes You can , it is called " On demand " . One of my systems use to be that way before I added a pressure tank . In place of a full size pressure tank , there was a small expansion tank , Maybe 3" in diameter by 12" long , mounted on the pipe .
Both My systems are submersible but they are 180' and 200' feet down . Keep in mind that the intake on a submersible is not on the bottom of the pump , it is in the center , thus with only 2' of water , that would be ??????????? .
From the sound of it , I would think your best option is to rebuild your pump house and insulate . For the price of a submersible pump , you could buy a good chunk of lumber or just rehab the current building and insulate . :2cents:
Submersible's are great in that you only have 1 pipe going down the hole , versus a 2 pipe jet / venturi system like My parents have .
I can pull either of my systems by hand , although labor is involved . I use deep well poly pipe . Thicker walled than regular poly pipe and it is a continuous lenght for both wells , No splices .

Fred H.

 

[oosik]

My house well is a spring. Its been upgraded with stacked 4' diameter cement manhole rings. The bottom ring is perforated - the top ring pinches down to a standard manhole cover. There are a total of five rings in the stack. Ground surface to water surface is around 14'. Water depth varies seasonally from 60" to 45". When originally dug with an extend-a-hoe and prior to installation of the pump - we pumped the well, with a big trash pump, and surged it for three days to remove silt, sand etc. It was pumped at 300 gpm and never drew down the water level even an inch.

Anyhow - I have a 3/4 hp submersible pump that pumps to a bladder tank located in the basement. This system was installed in 1982 and has successfully supplied water to the house with no problems. The pump sits in a cradle, at an angle of approximately 45 degrees to keep the intake off the gravel at the bottom of the well and to ensure the entire pump is completely under water at all times.

 

[buickanddeere]

Submersible pumps vary considerably . Some are for shallow, moderate or very deep wells. A 2 or 3 stage shallow pump won't work 500ft deep. A 9 stage deep pump will move water but wastes power churning water in a shallow applocation.

 

[Cord]

The submersible pump motor is cooled by the flowing water so they put the motor on the bottom. This means when the water level is low your pump will be above the water and it won't work.

Why not use a convertible jet pump? This pump sits above the surface and is air cooled and it's well within the pumps ability to lift the water from your well. You drop a suction pipe down into the well and then use a foot valve and suction strainer. Because the pump is above the ground it will freeze in the winter. My best suggestion is to rebuild the enclosure and put a small electric heater in it.

 

[Clint S]

I have used a submersible pump in your situation and it worked well. As others said the intake just has to below water. I have put my expansion tanks in the well on a platform I have built or even suspended by a rope, 2 to 3 feet Down. Just build a decent cap for the well and insulate it. The warmth of the water will keep it from freezing. Heck, I even had the pump and tank in the well on a platform in one too.

 

[wupham]

I have a situation much like yours. Our pump is in an underground stream that can get below 16" at times. A regular pump won't work but we found one that is reversed so that it pumps at 4.5". See:
Sta-Rite - Sta-Rite 2DOM5121 STEP Plus D-Series High Head Submersible Effluent Pump 2 GPM .5 HP 115V 1PH 1' Cord #SRT2DOM5121

However, we also have a no load sensor that automatically shuts off the pump if there is no load (no water). It will then come back on automatically after a set amount of time (from 10 minutes to an hour). The prevents the pump from burning itself out if the well goes dry. This isn't cheap and it may be cheaper to go another route but it does work.

 

[bigtiller]

How about building a new dog-house, insulating the holy bejeezus out of it and adding an outlet for a thermostatically controlled switch to power a heat lamp.

 

[Valveman]

I have done many systems like this for mountain cabins or lake houses. For minimum submergence the STEP type pump will work, as it's intake is on the bottom, not the middle like regular submersible well pumps. I use a Cycle Stop Valve so a little 4.5 gallon size tank is all that is needed. Don't use any additional check valves except for the one on the pump itself. Then you can add a brass bleeder orifice on a tee that is about 6' down the well. When the pump is running and there is pressure in the system, the bleeder stays closed. But when you get ready to leave or need to winterize the system, draining the system is easy. You simply turn off power to the pump and open at least one faucet. When the tank is empty and the pressure drops to zero, the bleeder will open and drain everything in the system down to the 6' mark. This will drain the bladder tank and all the lines to the open faucet.

When you need water again, simply turn on the pump, wait for the air to get out of the lines, and close the faucet. Then your back in business.

 

[STx]

Submersibles are generally set 10' off the bottom of the well to keep them from getting plugged up with sand/dirt/debris. Since your well is only 10' deep, I see a problem. I think with such a shallow well, you're going to be better off setting up the pump house to prevent it from dropping below freezing. For a little 4x4x4 house, you're only talking about a few hours work and maybe $200 in materials to do it from scratch.

 

[Valveman]

I put submersibles in shallow creeks, lakes, tanks, and all kinds of stuff. You don't need 10' below the pump. You just have to work with what you have.

 

[PILOON]

I installed a 110 vac submersible some 15 years ago in a very shallow well, like about 5-6 ft deep, and it is still working today.
The version I used has motor at bottom end with the suction in middle (most common design).
In my case the shallow (very) well has a very constant level so the pump is always submerged, also there is little or no silt deposits.

The shallow well is spring fed on a lakeside waterfront and the lake level also controls the well level. The lake water level is extremely constant never varies much due to a unique discharge that nature provided. The lake in question is totally spring fed with no inlets at all.
Springs and rain are the only sources of replenishment plus this lake is at the top of the watershed.
Annual multiple water analysis* by our association confirm that our whole 1 mile lake is bacteria free, and we strive to keep it that way.

*we have been testing for 20 years so as to carefully monitor its health.
Being spring fed, even shallow as it is, water temp is about a constant 40 deg F.

 

[speedbump]

Unless you have test pumped this well and monitored it's water level throughout the years, putting a submersible pump in a ten foot well is a bad idea. You will likely burn it up. Stay with the simple shallow well jet pump, construct a small building over it with insulation and a thermostat to keep heat in the building. You can put your tank in there also, it doesn't have to be very big. Deep well two pipe jets were mentioned, this is not what you need. Just use a single pipe shallow well jet pump.

 

[Valveman]

A jet pump might be able to get to water a couple inches lower than a submersible, but it will still burn up if it runs out of water. With the sub you don't have to worry about keeping it primed. Either of these types of pumps will work with a Dry Run Protection relay like the Cycle Sensor. This will protect the pump from running dry if you do pull all the water out of the well.

 

[speedbump]

A jet pump might be able to get to water a couple inches lower than a submersible, but it will still burn up if it runs out of water. With the sub you don't have to worry about keeping it primed. Either of these types of pumps will work with a Dry Run Protection relay like the Cycle Sensor. This will protect the pump from running dry if you do pull all the water out of the well.

From what I've read, he's already using a jet pump. That's why I suggested staying with it. If the well is that poor at producing water, it certainly will destroy either one.

 

[bigtiller]

Why does he need a new pump, the one he has is working. Or did I miss something important? Won't an insulated pump house solve the OP's problem?

 

[speedbump]

Why does he need a new pump, the one he has is working. Or did I miss something important? Won't an insulated pump house solve the OP's problem?

I don't think anyone said he needs a new pump. And I think an insulated heated shed would do the trick.

 

[Valveman]

A heated and insulated building will work fine with a jet pump. But I mentioned a submersible because the jet pump will not drain back easily for winterizing. With a submersible and a drain back system like I described, you would not need a well house. I have even set up systems like this on a thermostat. That way when the temperature gets down to say 34 degrees, the thermostat would shut off power to the pump and open a solenoid valve to drain the water. Then the system drains back and winterizes itself automatically.

 

[quicksandfarmer]

I don't think anyone said he needs a new pump. And I think an insulated heated shed would do the trick.

OP here. I'm leaning toward an insulated shed. Which means building a new one. The top of the well is a 48" concrete ring, and the existing shed was build tight around it, so there is no room to add insulation.

 

[Qapla]

I have a shallow well I use for livestock, it's not potable water. It's only about 10 feet deep. A previous owner built a small (about 4'x4'x4') well house over it and it has a shallow well pump with expansion tank and pressure switch in the well house. The well house is not well built and can get below freezing in the winter, so I disconnect the pump at the start of the winter. All of my piping is buried, and I have frost-free hydrants, so I would like to be able to use my water during the winter....

Since the pump seems to be working fine, I see no need to replace the pump.

Since you want to use the water all winter long, I see no reason to have a "self-winterizing" system.

Since all the pipes are buried and you have the correct hydrants, again, I see no reason to make things any more complicated than it has to be.

The problem is that the well house needs to be replaced - it seems that simple.

How tall are you? (You do not really need to answer that) Since a 4' X 4' X 4' pump house is a real bear to work in, I would consider building one that is 4' X 4' x 8' (or, slightly taller than you are). Make the exterior walls out of OSB and make sure you paint BOTH SIDES before you install them.

Install a ceiling light - not an LED or florescent - just a plain ceramic fixture with a pull string or switch. They still make incandescent flood bulbs/heat lamps/large wattage (like 200). Put one of these in the pump house.

Make sure you insulate the walls and ceiling of the pump house.

In the Winter, just leave the light on. That should be all you should be all you would need and it would cost less and be much simpler than some of the more complex options.

If you want to keep the pump house 4' high, just put the light on a short post and make the 4' high house/box so it can be lifted off for pump service.

I would probably use a small tank (like the ones that screw on with 3/4" thread) and a CSV to make the system operate a bit more "soft"