Synthetic Rotella

[Junkman]

Dargo.... I am curious... have you had any experience with Mercedes, BMW, Volvo, or any of the other high end cars? Is it mostly the newer cars or does this problem go back a decade to 1995????? Anything older than that??

 

[banjobj]

I understand. Thanks for the reply. /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

[BRIGUY]

Dargo,

I would be interested in the pics, what kind of oil used, the change interval , and the type of driving.

I would have to believe if this was happening than the motors were way over 3k using Dino.

Most dealers recommend 3k or 4 months (which ever comes first) no mater what the book says.

 

[BRIGUY]

You don't need to be manufacturer specific. That doesn't really mater. Just generally if you think the oil was actually changed or not.

I would love to see analysis results on the used oil.

 

[Dargo]

Here is a pic I got from an inspection today. The owner used Quaker State and claimed to always change his oil every 6 months or 6000 miles without fail.

Conventional oil has been all we have had for decades and has worked well. Whether it doesn't keep up with the current demands, or it is a mistake to not change it every 3 to 4 thousand miles. Either way, when there is too much time between changes of conventional oil, this is what you get. Now, you don't think a person would possibly lie to me and not tell me about missing an oil change or something, do you...? /forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

 

[BRIGUY]

cp1969
</font><font color="blue" class="small">( Yep, that looks nasty, although it isn't really clear to me what I'm looking at. I don't see a main bearing. It almost looks like a waffle iron. That brown stuff is not what I'm accustomed to seeing as sludge; sludge is very nearly jet black.
)</font>

Looking at the last Pic posted by Dargo That waffle iron is a windage device.


Dargo,

Thanks for the pix. Maybe we should start a picture thread for blown up of otherwise wrecked engines, transmissions, and drive lines etc. At our plant we have a whole display of broken components, each with a story.

</font><font color="blue" class="small">( Here is a pic I got from an inspection today. The owner used Quaker State and claimed to always change his oil every 6 months or 6000 miles without fail. )</font>

</font><font color="blue" class="small">( Now, you don't think a person would possibly lie to me and not tell me about missing an oil change or something, do you...? )</font>

Now what do I think the average joe would do if he just cooked his motor???? After running 6k or 6 months on dino. O/K was it 6k or was it 6 months.
Fat chance of anyone in that situation coming clean.

The only car that I know of that gets it's oil changed every 6 months at low mileage is my grandmothers, because I do it. With mobil 1. Yes her neighbors did tell her that I was ripping her off because I charge her $25 to change her oil with mobil 1 and a Pure One filter. She set them straight in a hurry (My gran is great) /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

 

[slowrev]

'The owner used Quaker State "

That explains it right there.

Ben

 

[gsxr1100]

The 6 months in kind of long on a petro oil. The 6k is fine since 99% of manuals state like 5 to 7.5K mile miles for a drain.

I have used a 100% synthetic since 1994 and works well. All I will say is, get the oil tested since no 2 motors are 100% the same.

 

[Dargo]

slowrev, you know, I don't have any stats to back up this statement, but I don't like Quaker State either. That sounds bad since I'm a "stats" guy, but for some reason I just don't care for Quaker State. Maybe in my minds eye, I've seen too many pics like the last one and have the Quaker State name associated with it? /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif Yes, I looked, I don't have any stats against Quaker State; just a feel.

 

[Bird]

A neighbor bought a new diesel Mercedes in '81 and I bought a new Isuzu diesel. Quaker State was one of several oils recommended at that time by brand name in the Mercedes owners manual; used to have the "CC/CD" rating, and that's when I started using it. Of course, after a few years, we went back to gasoline vehicles, but I stayed with the Quaker State oil in everything until I got a diesel Kubota tractor. I noticed Quaker State no longer had the diesel API rating and I called and talked to one of their engineers who told me it would work just fine in a diesel, but would need to be changed more frequently. So I changed to Delo 400 for the tractors, but kept using Quaker State in cars and pickups until 2 years ago. Now I haven't racked up real high mileage on my vehicles, compared to some; 158k on the Isuzu, 106k on a Ford Escort, only 60k on a 454 Chevy one ton pulling a 35' fifth-wheel, about 40k on a 460 Ford engine in a 40' motorhome, etc., and to make matters worse, I used nothing but Fram oil filters during that time. /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif Of course, I have always changed oil & filter every 3k miles.

Now maybe I wasn't using the best oil & filters, but I never had a head or oil pan removed from any of those vehicles, never had an oil burner, and never had an engine failure. So I guess Quaker State wasn't too bad. /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif

 

[gsxr1100]

I am pro synthetic all the way, but showing a picture of sludge and saying it is “some oil” does not say anything.

From what I have seen and on oil tests etc. Rotella has ZERO moly in it, ZERO Barium, and TBN is low (below 10.50). It does have high levels of Ca, Zinc and Ph allow by the EPA.

The additive package looks good but there are better synthetic oils out there. And 6-months on a dino oil is WAY to long....

 

[BRIGUY]

gsxr1100

I have used synthetic since the early 90's. I always changed @ 3k.
I recently started sending oil to Blackstone and now am beginning to extend drain times.

You seem to have much more experience than I do, with oil sampling. Attached is a copy of one of my test results. Why is the TBN soo low. Using Mobil 1 5w40.

Bird brought up an interesting point in his last post. Having been a Mechanic most of my life. I always remember many old timers when I was younger telling me that the oil and filter you use doesn't mater as much as how often you change it. I still think their is a lot of truth to this if using Dino.

 

[slowrev]

Bird,
First off not picking on you or saying you are wrong, like Dargo I just have had a negative impression of Quaker State for many years. Also perhaps my perception is outdated as I have no real experience or real feedback on current day QS oil.

My past impressions on Quaker state oil was not good. I worked as a mechanic both full and part time for over 10 years, and hung around my friends auto repair shop quite a bit for many more years. Most everyone at the shop did not have good words for Quaker state. One of the main concerns was that it did not mix well with other oils. Which was an issue at the time since many people would have a "real" service station add oil for them. And the older QS oils seemed to sludge a lot. Many times my friends and myself would tear down an engine and see the sludge and say "they must have been using Quaker State" many times it was true.

Like Dargo said, no real facts to back this claim/feeling up though. My pervious post was partially in jest and partially serious.

Disclaimer :
Bird, I do appreciate and value your posts/replies on TBN, you are one of my favorite posters on here, and in no way wish to demean your viewpoint, just stating mine /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

This which oil is best thing will be solved about the same time as the meaning of life is discovered /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif Too many variables involved

/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif

Ben

 

[gsxr1100]

Without seeing oxidation and nitration I would GUESS your TBN is going down to it fighting some elements.

Also TBN drops then goes back up slightly over time/miles. Nevermind I do not know what it starts with. Also your engine has many miles so that is also adding some elements.

 

[Bird]

Ben, I'm certainly not saying that Quaker State is better or worse than other brands because I don't know. When I was 16 years old, my Dad bought a Texaco service station. He was already using Havoline oil in the car, and of course, we continued. Then he sold that station and bought a Mobil service station, and naturally, we changed to using Mobil oil. Then when I moved into Dallas and was working night shifts, the only convenient place to get oil changes (24 hours a day) was an Exxon station, so I used Uniflo for a lot of years, until I bought the diesel Isuzu and changed to Quaker State. And now I'm back in town again and letting the Ford dealer do my oil and filter changes, so I'm using Ford OEM stuff. And I've never had an oil related problem with any of them.

I can remember when I was a teenager and Amalie was a popular oil. It was asked for by customers and we sold it in the service stations. But I've seen those sludged up oil pans and the mechanics used to blame it on Amalie. Well, at that time the most popular Amalie was a non-detergent oil; lots of oils were before the days of hydraulic valve lifters. So I'm not sure you could blame it on any particular brand.

And 30 years ago, I had an Onan service center guy show me a couple of Onan generator oil pans in which the oil had "jelled" in them so firm that you could hardly dig it out with a putty knife. He said it was from running regular motor oils when the generators in motorhomes at that time ran so hot that you needed a motor oil rated for diesel engines. That was in the days when I was running 10W-40 Uniflo in my vehicles and I found that while most service stations didn't stock it, they could order Exxon Diesel Lube in 30W or 40W and that's what I ran from then on in that little Onan.

Now an awful lot of my knowledge and experience is dated, and things, including motor oils, change, so it's no problem at all for me if someone disagrees with me. I might learn something. /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif One of my old habits that I haven't broken, whether right or wrong, is that I do not mix brands. I pick one and try to stay with it as long as I have that engine. If I change brands, I do it at oil change time and have never changed brands on the same engine more than once. And that comes from the days when the "experts" from Mobil and other companies claimed that their detergent packages were different and not compatible with other brands. True or not? I don't know.

 

[BRIGUY]

gsxr1100,

Here is another test, different car.
Less miles on oil
less miles on engine
oil in car much longer (8 months +or-)
mostly short trip driving (wife works 3 miles from home and comes home for lunch every day) bad for oil. This is one reason Why I use synthetic, and oil pan heater during the winter.

The other test I posted, That car gets 100 mi per day 4 days per week.

TBN is similar.

Does any one know the TBN on Mobil 1 so I don't have to pay $30 to find out.

 

[gsxr1100]

Let me see what I can find..

But here is my last test with Amosil 5w-30.

My TBN is 3.33 with over 12K miles. I wonder if M1 package does not hold up well and thus there TBN drops like a rock! weird.


http://home.comcast.net/%7E94gsxr1100/lexus/oil/oil_test.pdf

Oh, the short trips might mess with the old viscosity and sheer stress but not anothing else. If it did you would see fuel and water in oil...but then again it looks like Blackstone does not test below 2.0%

Lastly, look at the ph and the Zn..Very low.

 

[cp1969]

</font><font color="blue" class="small">( Apparently facts, statistics, pictures, and inside industry articles are not to be believed by you. )</font>

If I read on the internet that someone says all horses are pink, yet in my entire experience I have never seen one, should I conclude that, in spite of all my experience, all horses must be pink? It's a matter of balancing one's personal experience with that of others, and in the case of oil, there are a lot of tall tales floating around the internet that, until I see it, I shall choose to regard with some suspicion. The second hand evidence you offer is in direct contradiction with all that I have seen in the last 25 years and I have plenty of first-hand evidence which suggests that there are NO dire consequences for not using synthetic.


</font><font color="blue" class="small">( It is interesting that today I spoke with a guy who owned a muffler shop who is totally convinced that the U.S. government rammed the planes into the twin towers just to give them a reason to go to war. He really believes that in spite of all of the facts, pictures, interviews, and publications. Some people are simply not subject to logic nor reasoning. /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif Have a good 'un! /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif )</font>

This I don't appreciate at all. Simply because I don't buy into your synthetic oil pitch is no reason to suggest anything like this.

This should be an easy thing to verify. If sludge build-up is as common as you say, then some members of this board should have experienced it. Somehow I doubt that I'be been living a charmed existence and have dodged the sludge bullet, expecially since I change the dino oil every six months or 7500 miles on cars and trucks, once a year on the air cooled engines and motorcycles, and every 15K on diesel trucks. I used to be on the 3k oil change cycle and found it to be a waste of time and oil. I've been inside an L10 Cummins and 3406 Cat, an Onan, a Tecumseh, a Harley, a VW diesel, a VW air-cooled Type 1, a V4 Honda motorcycle, a Continental 65, a Lycoming O320, a 350 Chevy V8, a 4 cyl Toyota, a 3.0 Ford V6, a 2.0 4 cyl Ford, and have yet to see any sign of sludge in any of them. The last engine I saw sludge in was a 292 ci Ford V8, circa 1974.

That is my experience. If others on this forum want to put up lists of the engines they've personally had apart and did find sludge, so much the better.

 

[WilliamBos]

Hi,

I will gladly add to your list. We have had apart many (variations ) of the small block Chev, a Standard 23c, a Perkins A3.152 Perkins, various small engines from B&S, Tecemseh, Kohler, and I stand by my poin that a good quality Dino oil at regular change intervals, is just as good as synthetic. We have also seen many engines sludged up due to short distance city driving, it is a killer. ( 4 years of Autoshop in highschool, tons of short distance sludge.) I used to work real close to home, and when I did, I let time and condition of my oil dictate the changes.

I am not stirring up a pot here, just not sold on synthetic engin oil yet.

Take care

Will

 

[BRIGUY]

Charles,
This is a tough topic. 2 sides 2 lists of experiences.

1 guy only sees motors with less than perfect care.

The other guy (you) has seen motors with what sounds like relatively good care.

Your list of achievements is impressive. but your experiences are still different than others have had.

I have rebuilt MANY engines my self.
One example is: 104 (one hundred and four) Mitsubishi 3.0 L between 1993-1994. Got paid 8.4 hours warranty book time to rebuild each. Used to do 2 at a time. It sucked. Never again!!!!!

I would say 25% of the motors I have been inside were sludged. BUT a larger number have had piston rings cooked and stuck like candy (varnish and coke). Due to lack of oil maintenance and cooling system service.

What I saw every day was problem motors. Now this might only be luck but I have never seen a bottom end apart that had been run with synthetic. (other than race engines)

You are obviously a smart guy and your vehicle maintenance practices have served you well. In all of the cases you have seen Dino has been fine. I believe it.

I have a friend who owns many vehicles. For a while I saw him loose 1 or 2 motors per year Lexus, Mercedes, Mazda, GMC, etc. All sludged from lack of care. 2 years ago I put synthetic in everything he owns. I don't know if he has had any oil changes since. But he hasn't lost a motor in 2 years.

So every one is right.

Dino Is fine in most cases with normal care.

Synthetic is better in extreem cases, and in some newer engines.

Now Lets all get along and think about tractors.